Duelist -- Doesn't work as advertised?

[Particle_Man]

Is it just me or does the Duelist not work as advertised? On the one hand, if you do without armour, you seem to be giving up a lot more than you are getting. (You get +Int bonus to AC, double your Mobility feat AC for Aoo's due to movement, and get +2 to reflex save). Oh, and you can get precise strike while in armour, if you give up a shield and keep your hand free. But the AC bonus of even moderately magical armour would seem to outweigh the AC bonus you gain, except perhaps for cases where mobility comes into question (and when it comes to higher levels, magical armour would likely be better even then).

On the other hand, one could wear full plate and gain the other abilities of the duelist, including the super AC bonus for fighting defensively (+7 to +10, on top of other defensive bonuses!). I think a strong enough fighter would do better to fight with a two-handed weapon for the extra strength bonus to damage than rely on precise strike, or else, if one wants to be defensive, could use a shield.

If one is a dwarf, one can even tumble in full plate, thus taking advantage of some aspects of that acrobatic charge ability.

But then, we seem to have left the concept of duelist behind, (as a lightly armoured, intelligent fighter). So why does the duelist work so much better outside of its own concept? That seems weird to me.

I was trying to see if it mixed well with other non-fighter classes. Rogue maybe, but I think the rogue perks outweigh the duelist ones, and rogues can wear mithral shirts and use masterwork bucklers.

Wizards at least use their INT bonuses, but duelist does not allow them to increase spellcaster level. EK would be a much better bet for the wizard.

Monks might work, but this splits the ac bonus to three stats (maybe good, maybe bad), and more relevantly, the monks hands are not piercing and so don't work with precise strike.

I don't want to sound an alarm on duelist. I am sure I am missing something. But what am I missing? Why does the duelist not work as advertised, and work better going the heavily armoured dwarf route?

 

[TheAntiSummit]

No, I don't think your missing something. I think you are exactly right. The duelist gives up alot more than he gets by gicing up armor. I have toyed with the idea of replacing Canny Defense with something like "Always on the defensive", where the Duelist can always be considered fighting defensively and as his bonuses for that increase, his penalties decrease. I think it just fits better and makes the Duelist suck a little bit less.

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

Hey

IMC there are a number of PrC based on different academies throughout the home city, each one teaching a different dueling style. Each PrC is *loosely* based on the Duellist, with one of the major changes being exactly what AntiSummit mentioned ... the first level ability for each class, in addition to some other token ability (usually relating to the signature weapon of the school), is the ability to fight defensively at half the penalty (ie, -2 to all attacks). FTR, these PrC have really strict roleplaying prereq's and gain Elaborate Parry at 3rd level.

Thanks
-Matt

 

[d4]

strangely enough, the picture of the duelist in the DMG definitely looks like she's wearing armor...

my fix would be to house rule Canny Defense, Enhanced Mobility, and Grace to work in light armor (but still not with shields). that would go a long way to helping the duelist survive at higher levels.

 

[Fenes 2]

I think the Duelist in Sword & Fist works much better than the one in the 3.5 DMG. Earlier and better precise Strike, for once. Only problem would be cherry-picking the first levels, but that is another thing.

 

[nsruf]

I agree, the duelist is pretty weak compared to an armored fighter. It can work if you have an 18+ Dex and Combat Expertise (which is not a prereq., oddly enough) to boost AC, though. They should probably give it an additional AC bonus similar to the monk or dwarven defender. This wouldn't be front-loaded and add some appeal, IMO.

 

[nameless]

Eventually, Dex gets high enough that armor only decreases your AC. Adding Int on top of Dex and AC is even higher. After putting a +10 to +13 dodge bonus for elaborate parry (don't forget the default +3 for fighting defensively and having 5 tumble ranks), AC is very competitive with tank fighters. With Bracers of Armor of moderate enhancement (which are cheaper than other AC bonuses), Duelists easily have higher AC than comparable tanks.

With the way magic stacks, the Duelist will almost always have a higher AC than a comparable tank. Tanks wearing fullplate can't buff their Dex to increase AC. Fullplate +5, Large Shield +5, Dex of 12, +5 Deflection and +5 Natural armor is pretty much the maximum possible AC without temporary buffing spells, which gives you a 41 AC. A Duelist can put on Bracers of Armor +8, use magic to get a Dex of 22ish, Int of maybe 20, the same ring and amulet, then fight defensively. That would be an AC of 49 at the minimum level for Elaborate Parry. The Duelist is more open-ended than the fighter, since he can directly buff 5 things instead of 4, so the gap will most likely widen.

Duelists' AC isn't the problem, the fact that they still need uber-strength to be competitive in damage is the problem. It's feasible to get a high Dex and Int, but three or four high stats (Con is still important, too) is more difficult.

 

[tetsujin28]

And the original S&F duellist could use bucklers, whilst the new one can't, so it's even more screwed. And yes, the illos in both S&F and the new DMG both look like they're wearing armour...

 

[ForceUser]

*ahem*

Unfettered > Duelist

 

[Pants]

*ahem*

Unfettered > Duelist

Go home.