Duelists, anyone?

[Will]

Anyone try a duelist and like it?

Been perusing books and considering stuff I haven't tried before, and looked over Duelist again.

From the point of view of a standard melee-type, it looks like utter crud; no armor, no offhand weapon, no shield, uses Int bonus to AC? Man, what? Looks like you'd have to be a high Dex rogue who is giving up TWF track.

There are a few advantages; precise shot works under a lot of circumstances, the extra mobility, the 'charging over poor ground' are nifty, and at 7th getting a HUGE boost to fighting defensively would be really handy. (Effectively, -4 to attack, +10-+13 AC)

It hit me that one unlikely start might be a monk. Consider, you already don't wear armor, and siangham is a piercing weapon you can flurry with.

Still not sure it's worth doing, since you'd give up on unarmed damage advancement and greater flurry. Thoughts?

 

[nittanytbone]

Double Post -- Oops!

 

[nittanytbone]

Duelist is incredibly underpowered, IMHO.

A lot of the class features are cruddy.

Canny Defense -- you'd have to have 18 INT and be a level 4 duelist to equal the benefit of a chain shirt or mage armor spell.

Improved Reaction -- Not bad.

Enhanced Mobility -- Hang on, you do have tumble as a class skill right?

Grace -- Meh, take it or leave it. Worth less than a mediocre feat (lightning reflexes) as you can't even use it to qualify for other classes.

Precise Strike -- No synergy with a Daring Outlaw's typical TWF style.

Acrobatic Charge -- Last time I checked, level 12 characters had easy access to Fly and other effects that made terrain somewhat irrelevant. Plus the fighting style here is not geared towards massive damage leap-attack style charges.

Elaborate Parry -- Might have been useful as a level 1 ability.

Deflect Arrows -- Great, a bonus feat as a capstone ability.

D10 HD - Can't complain.

Full BAB - Can't complain.

Skill List -- Meh. Decent list but you can't keep maxing search and disable device, the two key skills for most rogues. 4 SP/level is also mediocre.

Saves -- Only a single strong save, and REF is arguably the weakest of the three.

Monk wouldn't be great, IMHO. Monks already suffer from MAD. INT is one of the few stats they can dump. Duelists need INT. Unless you ditched point buy and have six 18s to place, I just don't see that happening.

For the "dashing rogue" archetype I'd opt for a Rogue X/Swashbuckler 3 with the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. If the GM allowed Daring Outlaw to stack with Duelist levels as well, then maybe Duelist would be worth taking over Rogue levels. Maybe.

The thing is that Dodge + Mobility lead to Spring Attack, which doesn't synergize at all with TWF, the desired fighting style for Daring Outlaws.

 

[mvincent]

Anyone try a duelist

Yes

and like it?

No.

It's sub-optimal. Bouncing around the battlefield can be fun (if you like to do stunts and such), but that can be done with a much lower investment. About the only big benefit is improved reaction (because at higher levels, whoever goes first often wins).

 

[Nifft]

Might be interesting in Gestalt, as the other side of an Int-based caster... but only if you could find a way to make Spring Attack useful.

Hmm, Wizard 20 // Warblade 6 / Duelist 10 / Warblade +4, maybe? Warblade focused on Diamond Mind maneuvers for Concentration synergy.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Cbas_10]

Are we limiting the discussion to only the Duelist PrC?....or are we also talking about any characters that feel/look/act like duelists?

If I'm looking for "optimal builds" ...or... the ability to stand toe-to-toe with a dragon...then...no. It's obvious that a couple of small, thin blades and no armor is, well, squishy.

However, in his element...Wow! Naval situations, urban campaigns, and just about anyplace where you are not pitting the duelist in situations calling for an armored tank grudge match. Additionally, in games that do not employ the "christmas tree" of magic items (yes...D&D really can easily work without the Magic Item Tree...), the duelist really shines.

A duelist does not need heavy armor or magic to do his thing. Just a bit of skill, a few interesting feats, and a whole lot of style. But....if your games are all "Adventure! Adventure! Dungeons to plunder! Planes to wander!"...I'd imagine that the duelist will be boring, constantly trying to "find his place" within the party. Much like trying to play a war elephant-mounted combat focused fighter in a naval storyline. Duelists are very specific specialists, and players should be prepared for such.

One of the very few high level characters I've played ended up as a Fighter 4/ Ranger 6/ Duelist 3/ Tempest 3 or 4 or something. Early on he used armor and such, just like any fighter and ranger. Later, as he gained extra bits of PrC fun, he dropped the armor and became more of the quintessential duelist. And was quite the blender in combat. Sure...he failed more Will saves and dropped into negative hit points more often than anyone else...but...ego is fun like that

 

[Felix]

Are we limiting the discussion to only the Duelist PrC?

The PrC, I think.

It's a great NPC class, and a fair urban campaign PC class. As an NPC, the DM can drop the duelist into the mix in the situations the character is supposed to shine.

....or are we also talking about any characters that feel/look/act like duelists?

I always thought a fighter/druid with a quarterstaff would be horrifying. You look innocuous, you can attack one- or two-handed, you can TWF, Shilleligh will turn your quarterstaff into a greatsword. I dunno, I always liked the thought of a quarterstaff-wielding duelist type.

 

[Sitara]

Give himn acrobatic strike from PHBII (+6 to attack)