Dungeon #99 - Is the end near?

Johnny Wilson said:
Just a word from the object of your hatred and hostility!

{snip}

The truth is that I still think Dungeon/Polyhedron is a terrific buy at $6.99. I defy you to find that many full-color pages of adventure at that price. Yet, I have also heard what you are all saying. The good thing about the magazine business is that it is always changing. Every issue is a new product. SO, I'll make a deal with you. IF Dungeon/Polyhedron is still viable by Origins and GenCon time, I will listen to you all at the Paizo at the Mike conferences. At that time, I will discuss options with you and see what you think about other approaches we can try.

I will be away from Paizo doing volunteer work for the next 11 days, but I wanted to let all of you know that the arrogant powers at Paizo really do listen to what you have to say. In spite of those who claim that Dungeon has gone downhill, I can assure you that our efforts in creating the Adventure Path and in using the best talent available to write these adventures is part of our commitment to publishing a high quality Dungeon/Polyhedron with every issue. I know some of you wish I would just kill one or the other magazine and make things easy, but I'm not Solomon and I'm not sure I could make the right decision.

Sincerely,
Dr. Johnny L. Wilson
President, Paizo Publishing, LLC
Fat Greedy Bastard of All That's Evil in Publishing

Thank you for 'splainin' yourself, Johnny.

But I'll throw one complaint into the hat that has nothing to do with business decisions such as this...

Did we really need a comic that depicts someone flipping the bird? It's this kind of thing that I perceive as lowering the value of Dungeon... to be honest, the comic has, to me, been a complete and utter waste of space. Not funny, not useful, not even well-drawn, and, well, tasteless and offensive to boot.

Now, I found Hijinks as useless as the next person, but I can see that some people enjoy one-offs. Heck, I've enjoyed one-offs in the past. So that's not an issue to me. For me, it's a larger issue with Paizo going for the cheap shock, the low-brow humor, the tasteless gag, and abandoning any pretension of what I consider a professional standard in printing. And I'm pretty sure I'm in the MINORITY on that one, but it is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

I will let you run your business as you feel you need to, and I will continue to vote with my wallet. Dungeon - and Dragon - have long since become something that I not only find unusable, but that I find pandering to the lowest common denominator and offensive. And again, I'm in the minority, but it's my opinion - take it for what it's worth (1/Nth of your revenue stream, where N is the number of subscribers).

--The Sigil
 

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EDITED

EDIT - Blister, we don't abide by posters posting personal insults and flames to other posters here.

Henry Link
 
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So, exactly how many letters did you publish in your magazine criticizing the recent change Thomasson? Oh, that would be none. So, yeah, it's pretty evident that you are slanting.
He said there were none they could print. I don't really see that as slanting. If this issue's as apparently slanted as you say, there'll be a printable reaction to that, just as there was to the anti-vile letters.
Sending around Paizo personnell to do damage control looks pretty pathetic as well.
Eh. That's not fair either. You want the silent treatment instead? Condemning them for explaining their reasoning and defending their decisions isn't manners.
 

First of all, I want to tone things down a little bit. I haven't read much of this thread yet, but two things are immediately clear, and need to be corrected.



Point #1: Paizo is welcome at these boards, and the posters are welcome to both praise and critique their practices here. We offered this as a forum for them to directly interact with their listeners. HOWEVER, it doesn't give people free reign to insult Paizo staff personally. Let's cease the personal fire right now.

Point #2: Mr. Wilson and company understand quite well that not all the potential readers and existing ones as well like the changes they have made. But they do listen, and they react to the market. So if posters want to make a point, it needs to be from facts, or it needs to be from personal preference. Veiled responses of "You are killing off Dragon or Dungeon with your practices" won't do a whole lot to persuade anyone.

Let's please keep it civil, because if there's one thing I encourage here, it's healthy discussion. Healthy discussion does not come from insults or slander.

Thanks to all.

Henry Link
Moderator
 

If I may, a few thoughts on Dungeon and how it is useful to me.

I run two D&D campaigns. I often use modules that I've purchased - recently quite a few have come from Dungeon magazine and have been excellent.

The value of the Polyhedron material is questionable for me, but that doesn't bother me that much - some of the minigames have nice ideas that I may use at some point in the future. So, I don't mind Polyhedron, and I love the Living Greyhawk section.

However, the fact that Polyhedron is in Dungeon magazine gives me an immediate problem. It wasn't hard before for my players to resist buying the magazine. It is more difficult now - and any issue that a player in my games picks up makes using the adventures therein extremely difficult.

This, incidentally, displays part of the problem Dungeon has with circulation - it is very much a DM's only magazine in concept. Thus, not that useful for 80% of D&D gamers, pulling a figure out of thin air. :)

Once Polyhedron got merged with it, that focus disappeared, and the usefulness of Dungeon as a source of adventures also dropped, because I could no longer assume my players wouldn't buy the magazine.

So, for myself, I have a situation where both the Polyhedron and Dungeon material is valuable, but the inclusion of the Polyhedron material in the same magazine as has the Dungeon magazine makes the whole less valuable than it was before.

Do I think there is an easy, good solution to this that will satisfy everyone? No, I don't. I am very glad that I don't have to make that decision.

Cheers!
 

I have to say I've been very pleased with Dragon for the most part. They usually have at least a couple of articles that I find useful and/or interesting.

I think Dungeon's Adventure Path adventures (2 so far) have been pretty excellent in thoroughness of preparation. But I don't have any use for Polyhedron taking up half of my Dungeon subscription. Issue 100 is an exception in that it had content relevant to D&D with new creatures and feats for Githyanki. So I was pleased with this last Dungeon/Polyhedron issue, but I was happier when I could have just Dungeon.

I am planning to keep my Dragon subscription for the forseeable future. But I'll reconsider my Dungeon subscription when it expires in December depending on how their adventures are doing in quality and depending on subscription price.
 

zoroaster100 said:
But I don't have any use for Polyhedron taking up half of my Dungeon subscription. Issue 100 is an exception in that it had content relevant to D&D with new creatures and feats for Githyanki.

What about the Living Greyhawk Journal stuff that's now going to be in Poly?
 

The claim keeps being made that Dungeon is the best value for your adventure dollar. I had posted something similar to this a few months ago. This is updated to include some info I didn’t include then or guessed at. I am still estimating some things and if anyone wants to provide more info about issues 98 and 100 I will update appropriately. Dungeon is still the best value but now the difference is closing. The price per adventure page has gone from less than half of a module to equal to the cheaper mega-adventures while the small Dungeon issues for non-subscribers are more than the mega-adventures but still somewhat less than the small adventures. I have no idea how much advertising revenue impacts the price per page compared to individual adventures so the actual values from a publisher’s point of view may be different. This is just a look at per page of adventure, if you value the Poly side then its value is still even higher. My personal opinions as to its value to me can be found after the breakdown.

----------------------

WotC

The Sunless Citadel: B&W
The Forge of Fury: B&W
The Speaker in Dreams: B&W
The Standing Stone: B&W
Heart of Nightfang Spire: B&W
Deep Horizon: B&W
32 pages + Inside Front Cover + Inside Back Cover =34 pages @ $9.95 = $0.293/page

Lord of the Iron Fortress: B&W
Bastion of Broken Souls: B&W
48 pages + Inside Front Cover + Inside Back Cover =50 pages @ $9.95 = $0.199/page

Into the Dragon’s Lair: B&W
96 pages @ $17.95 = $0.187/page

City of the Spider Queen: Color
175 pages/176 pages @ $29.95 = $0.171/page (+1 page of ads)

Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil: B&W with Color Maps
206 pages/208 pages @ $29.95 = $0.145/page (+2 pages of ads)



Malhavoc Press

The Banewarrens: B&W
127 pages/128 pages @ $17.95 = $0.141/page (+1 page of ads)



Goodman Games

Idylls of the Rat King: B&W
32 pages + Inside Front Cover + Inside Back Cover =34 pages @ $11.00 = $0.324/page



Dungeon

Issue 93: Color
79 pages/113 pages @ $5.99 = $0.076/page

Issue 95: Color
76 pages/100 pages @ $7.99 = $0.105/page

Issue 96: Color
80 pages/97 pages @ $7.99 = $0.100/page

Issue 97: Color
116 pages/131 pages @ $7.99 = $0.069/page

Issue 98: Color (Did not purchase, estimate from information posted)
50 pages/60 pages @ $6.99 = $0.140/page

Issue 99: Color (Did not purchase, estimate from information posted with subscription bonus)
45 pages/55 pages @ $6.99 = $0.155/page

Issue 99: Color (Did not purchase, estimate from information posted without subscription bonus)
30 pages/40 pages @ $6.99 = $0.233/page

Issue 100: Color (Did not purchase, estimate from information posted)
80 pages/100 pages @ $6.99 = $0.087/page

----------------------


{Personal Opinion}
Does anyone else remember when Dungeon was uncontroversial and did not have former readers mad at it? You may not have purchased it but that was due to not wanting adventures rather than editorial decisions.

I have no use for Poly so I only care about Dungeon personally. I didn’t mind the Poly content as long as it didn’t interfere with my Dungeon content. I stopped buying at 97 since the value to me was now close enough that I decided that the amount of stuff I don’t want (any collection of several unknown articles/adventures will often contain parts I am not interested in) made the value for my dollar better spent on individual adventures that I want. I stated in previous threads that I was willing to go up to $10 for an issue for a continuation of the 94-97 format. This would come out to:

Proposed Dungeon: Color
80 pages/100 pages @ $9.99 = $0.125/page

I am curious as to Johnny Wilson’s comment “IF Dungeon/Polyhedron is still viable by Origins and GenCon time, I will listen to you all at the Paizo at the Mike conferences. “ Does this mean that Dungeon/Poly are not out of the woods even with the format change? What if Dungeon is not viable in 2 months? This will give it 4-5 issues at new format, while it was only 4 issues at old format higher prices before further changes were needed. Even more so if Dungeon/Poly is not viable at Origins/GenCon shouldn’t Mr. Wilson want input from his readers on what they want/will accept in order to make Dungeon viable, rather than making another editorial decision without input. Apparently the decisions made so far without input have not worked so well, so if Dungeon/Poly is not viable by Origins/GenCon what makes him think that ignoring the readers again will work better this time?
{End Personal Opinion}
 
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I have been reading Dungeon magazine since the very first, although until only this month have survived on borrowing from a friend and purchasing the odd magazine at my FLGS very occasionally.

However, (a) I kept realising that there were concepts and maps in Dungeon that I could use in my own campaign, but never had them to hand because I'd returned them to my frined (who lives 4 hours away); and (b) my friend refused to renew his subscription on the basis of cost.

So I decided to subscribe myself (https://subscribe.pcspublink.com/magazine/Paiz/subscribeForm.asp?track=JDNGN3&pub=DNGN&term=12). Now, for all you people in the US complaining about how much it costs you to buy Dungeon, you've got to be kidding. I'd love to pay US$6.99 per issue. At my FLGS, a Dungeon costs AU$17.00, i.e. on current exchange rates of AU$1 = US$0.65, US$11.05. When I subscribed it cost me $US99.00 for 12 issues, or in my terms, approx AU$152.00 (i.e. AU$12.67 or US$8.23 per issue). Naturally, this includes postage and handling.

I received my first Dungeon, #100, yesterday - by air mail! Here I was, reading about all the "3.5E goodies" in issue #100 on En World, thinking "a few more weeks, and I'll have it in my hot little hands", fully expecting it to arrive on some container ship several weeks after you guys get it in the US. Full marks to Paizo's shippers for choosing the fastest - and most expensive - way to get it to me.

Now, I've read most of Dungeon #100, and decided that there's little in there I can use. I too only play D&D, so generally Polyhedron is useless to me - but I knew and accepted that when I subscribed, because even if I can't use it, I can read it. This little fact seems to have escaped the majority of the whingers. For me, Dungeon has always been about ideas. I never use straight Dungeon adventures in my own campaigns - in fact, I've never even used an mildly modified Dungeon adventure in my own campaign. However, I relatively frequently use plots, maps, ideas from Dungeon. So, you buy a Dungeon in which there's not alot you can use. But you had to read it to find that out, and in the process, all of that "useless" material got into your head, and somewhere, somehow, along with all the other "useless" material in your head, it'll coalesce into something meaningful and useful. Just like the stuff from all those moronic SF and fantasy novels you keep reading.

Furthermore, what other magazines do you read and subscribe to? How much of them is "useless" to you? Do you bitch about how you couldn't possibly make all those dishes in the cooking magazine? Couldn't ever hope to drive, let alone buy, any of those cars in the motoring magazine? Get off your frikkin' horses, and look at the world from the common man's perspective (which is a bit rich coming from me, 'cos I can afford to subscribe to Dungeon, even from Australia, and have the readies to buy all of the 3.5E books the day they come out - in Australia (that's AU$60 per book, you whingers in the US)).

For the record, I don't like Dungeon #100 - IMHO it's one of the worst I've read. The adventures are linear and consist solely of combat and traps. But just by reading the damn thing, I consider the AU$12.67 I spent on it, worth it.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar
 

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