Dungeon #99 - Is the end near?

While I'm not sure about the cost of Dungeon versus other types of adventures, I must admit that #99 is the least useful I have recieved. The high level adventure made some good reading but was otherwise useless, and I'm growing quite fond of the 'Downer' comic, but the minigame...

Urghl.


However, 100 made me very happy that I have a subscription. The Polyhedron information perfectly complimented the high level Dungeon adventure, though it'll be a looong time before I have a chance to run that. The other adventures made were also quite good, and I liked having a Forgotten Realms adventure next to very interesting 'Ally' columns, a planar adventure, an interesting critical threat or two, and some generic adventure fodder.

...And Downer finally stabbed that whiny Lloth worshipper.
 

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I love posts like Johnny Wilson's. But then, I'm a business junky too. Its great to see behind the curtain and get a glimpse of the reasons for their decisions. Mr. Wilson, need an apprentice?

I don't care for the price increase, but I'm not mad at that. I realize that a profit needs to be made. The price increase was necessary to continue to publish these magazines. The opposition Paizo has to the price increase is made even worse when they publish for a demographic (gamers) who want everything to be free (in some cases even the internet access they use to pirate copyrighted material).

Don't waste your brain power wishing for the old days of WotC publishing the mags. WotC didn't want to publish them anymore. Essentially, it seems Paizo "saved" these magazines. Johnny Wison took a chance the WotC was no longer willing to take.
 

SemperJase said:
The opposition Paizo has to the price increase is made even worse when they publish for a demographic (gamers) who want everything to be free (in some cases even the internet access they use to pirate copyrighted material).

Love that "want everything to be free" bit! So true!

How many times have I heard the "I want the 3.5E books to be free to those of us who've bought the 3E books". What frikkin' planet are these people on? So, you rock up to your local automotive dealer and say, "Look, I bought this [insert model of car here], um, 3 years ago, and now I want a new [same model of car]. The new one's free, right, 'cos I paid for this one?". Or, more likely for the demographic and IQ we're talking about, "Hey, I bought Doom a few years back, but the graphics are a bit clunky, and I'm getting a bit bored of it, and now I'd like to play Doom II. But since I bought Doom, Doom II's free, right?" "Hey, I bought these jeans last year, but they've faded, and I've put on a bit of weight now, so they don't fit, and I'd like a new pair. But the new pair's free, right, cos' I bought the last pair." Got a theme going here?

Cheers, (I want everyting to be free, 'cos I bought one before, somewhere, some time ago, I'm sure of it) Al'Kelhar
 

Johnny Wilson said:
Just a word from the object of your hatred and hostility!

This may come across as a little cheesy, but I'm being honest so what the heck.

I sensed from your response that you might have felt a sting when reading some of the posts here, and even though some were certainly out of line (hence the admin response), it appears you reached the conclusion that this thread was all about bashing your work or your efforts. I admit that my thin-skinned self would have to pause a time or two to refocus.

However, if you go back to re-read some posts, you may notice that many of them (including mine) are actually positive. If you focus only on what is brown, without also soaking in the green, the experience you take away will only be brown. Please don't just take away the brown from us.

In contrast to your opening line, please also know that you and your staff are objects of respect and admiration. Why? Because at least from where I'm sitting, you folks have managed to accomplish things that some of us can only aspire to do...things like becoming the President of a successful publisher, or becoming a published author or artist or editor. On top of that, your work is excellent...even if you can't please everyone. Hey, not even the most powerful deities of our fantasy worlds manage to win over everyone.

Since my wisdom is only about a 5, I probably should not be spewing advice. Nevertheless, I do hope you will see there is actually some green tucked in around those brown spots.
 
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Seems strange (and by strange, I mean condescending) to me that Johnny Wilson said "IF Dungeon/Polyhedron is still viable by Origins and GenCon time, I will listen to you all at the Paizo at the Mike conferences. At that time, I will discuss options with you and see what you think about other approaches we can try."

This statement to me implies two things:

1) The magazine may cease to be published prior to, or aproximately coinciding with, Origins/GenCon due to continued poor sales; and/or

2) Opinions expressed by readers and members of messageboards will not be considered as valuable or desirable harbingers of change; only "elite" attendees of the aforementioned conventions (a tiny but vocal minority of gamers to be sure) may suggest changes to the magazine and have them be considered. If this is the case, it certainly sounds aliennating to the majority of the readership, to put it lightly. I, for one, was offended by his (admittedly perceived) arrogance and dismissive attitude towards criticism of his publication and his company's failure to give the readership what it wants, let alone reassure us that our opinions matter and positive change is indeed in the works.

Granted, this is taking his remarks very literally, and perhaps not as he intended. Of course, this being cyberspace, I have no way of knowing what he meant unless he posts again and clarifies his position. :rolleyes:

However, whatever he meant, it seems to me to be extremely short-sighted to delay any consideration of addressing changes to the magazine by any length of time unless there is no point in doing so; e.g, if the magazine will cease to be published this year anyway, and any energy put into changing it won't save a sinking ship, so why bother?

Polyhedron should be immediately and permanently jettisoned/scuttled along with Living Greyhawk Journal. These features not only have limited appeal, but reduce the number (and quality, if recent isues are any judge) of the D&D adventures, which is the primary reason most people buy the magazine, and was the magazine's sole original focus which readers (DMs) have come to rely upon since its inception in the late 80s. What I do know is, the level of "hit or miss" usefulness we have always seen and grumbled about in Dragon is unacceptable when it comes to Dungeon. Dungeon should be what it always has been: a reasonably priced source for D&D adventures. We don't need full color glossy paper; we just need creative adventures we can use. Nearly all the best issues were in the old B&W 1e/2e days. Now we get pretty pictures on fancy paper but the level of writing has fallen with few exceptions (the first 3e issue, the drow cover issue and the white half-dragon cover issue being the only ones that really delivered high quality over multiple adventures in the same issue).

The increased cover price is too high as well; I stopped buying every other magazine I ever had any interest in when prices went over $5 each... Dragon and Dungeon being the sole exceptions (however, I'm much pickier now and won't buy every issue because they are so expensive and usually have extremely limited usefulness).

TBH, I predict that Dungeon will go under within a year, with Dragon staying on life-support for another couple. This is based on pure gut instinct, not any kind of insider knowledge. I don't see how they can continue to publish drek and make money.

I would be in favor of combining Dragon and Dungeon into one mega-magazine ($7.99 cover), however, dropping all the awful comics and fiction and concentrating on what the magazines should be about: D&D rules expansions/clarifications and adventures. They could even keep the awful flip-flop cover design that drives me nuts, lol. Just give us useful crunchy bits and adventures. If we want bunches of comics, we can buy Dork Tower or KotD from Kenzer (putting these in Dragon is akin to free full page ads for Kenzer in my mind); if we want crummy third-rate sword and sorcery fiction, we can buy the latest WoTC or R.A. Salvatore novel.

That's what I think, anyway. YMMV.
 

I appreciate Mr. Wilson's response and can definitely sympathize with his attempts to make the two magazines profitable. However, I've been buying Dungeon since issue #8 and get the magazine for detailed, complex adventures that are easily portable to any D&D campaign. Sidetreks and maps of mystery I have the time to create on my own, so I generally do not find these particularly value-added. Anything else is interesting but largely irrelevant for me as a consumer. As a result I'll most likely be dropping my subscription and switch to the occasional purchase at a hobby shop if there is an adventure that I find is particularly strong. At the same time I don't mind spending even double the price if there are at least three quality adventures. I feel a little guilty about doing this, but at a certain point of disatisfaction I have to vote with my pocketbook.

Here are a couple suggestions which may or may not be useful (but hey a little brainstorming can sometimes help)...

- Split Dungeon and Polyhedren into two seperate, bi-monthly magazines and offer a price bundling discount for people who subscribe to two or three of the magazines. That way people who don't like Poly don't have to subscribe to it and people who like both can subscribe to both with a nice bonus. Besides what example is there out there of two magazines bundled into one besides Dungeon and Polyhedren that have suceeded. A magazine's focus is important... bundled magazines are creative but not industry standard for a reason.

- Have a back section for reviews specifically of upcoming modules offered in the next couple months or an in-depth plot synopsis (similar to what appears in the first couple pages of most adventures). Who better to purchase these things than those who buy Dungeon Magazine. Certify the quality of stuff out there on the net, in pdf format, and done by game publishers. This might attract more module purchasers to the magazine and make it more attractive to advertisers.

- Offer a 4 page section for a game manufacturer to buy space for a setting specific mini-adventure. It might be a way for them to hook new people into their campaign world. It also offers an RPG group a way to test out a new game world without having to invest a lot of money in it. Perhaps the quality of this mini-adventure would be higher because their incentive would be to showcase their game world in the most positive light.

- Partner with an appropriate company to create a module mini-catalog back section with titles that typically do not generate enough demand to apear in small hobby shops. Agree to take a percentage of all revenues generated this way. The partner company could keep inventory costs low and offer a wider selection relative to hobby shops who have greater inventory risk. The downside to this is it may create channel conflict with larger gaming retailers but this could be mitigated by using different versions for the subscription-base vs. the retail-purchased magazines.

- Promote your own pdf retailing website to compete with RPG Now. Use this site to resell individual adventures that have been out of print for a year or so. (Same concept as movies which later go to video followed by TV). Use your magazine to promote the website by having add-ons adventures that can be downloaded from the website. If you don't want to compete with RPG now then just resell some of your old material there.

- Offer a retail store directory where retailers could mention any special events or promotions which might drive traffic to their stores.

- Bundle your Dungeon, Polyhedren, and Dragon advertising into packages. For instance you could offer free unsold Dungeon advertising to boost your Dragon advertising as a deal closer to advertisers. Magazines and TV channels have used this strategy quite effectively. Also, the problem with a double-sided magazine is you are giving up your most valuable advertising space. The back cover is prime real estate.

Anyway, for whatever they are worth just a couple far-feteched ideas.
 

rounser said:
Some of us don't really care at all about multigenre d20, and wouldn't be disappointed if it disappeared tomorrow so long as D&D endured. As for caring what the forum denizens of RPG.net think...well, I'm trying to stifle a chuckle. ;)
Don't laugh. Many folks that design and sell games post there, and more of them lurk there. You may be one of the millions of D&D-only gamers, but you're not alone in this hobby. Anything that can make the hobby as a whole better is a good thing, and that means doing all that can be done to make d20 the go-to choice for RPG design.
 

let me get this straight...

Dungeon/Polyhedron is in a bit of a financial spot. One of the reasons it seems to be in a bit of a financial spot is the increased cost of printing in full color, and the inclusion of polyhedron material. This is a problem because it has alienated part of the subscription base. So, instead of trying to win back the subscription base, you decide to do the same thing that continues to alienate your traditional subscriber base until GenCon and hope it lasts? Is this not a business?

I personally like the polyhedron stuff and plan on using much of it (pulp, modern horror, Spell jammer, etc.). However it doesn't seem reasonable to loose the entire magazine because of the commitment to a fraction of it. If polyhedron is going to flush dungeon then get rid of poly, or atleast make sure the content is useable to joe-average gamer. I know it puts constraints on the artistic endeavors of writers and hampers the expansion of d20 markets (not that I know of anyone who got into d20 by reading an issue of poly), but shoot, if you gotta be profitable, you gotta make it profitable. JMO...

sincerely
chunky green dip
 

Suggestions, nto just criticism

Here is exactly what I want from Dungeon. They're my opinions, and only my own, but rather than just offer criticism, I'll offer suggestions, too.

Suggestion #1: Stop thinking of Dungeon and Dragon as Magazines in the sense that you think of Time or Newsweek or Csomo. Dungeon and Dragon are NOT, repeat, are NOT "conventional magazines" and need not position themselves as such. They are niche products, meant to appeal to gamers who are, on the whole, already familiar with the product. New subscribers will, in virtual certainty in each case, be drawn from the ranks of existing gamers, not the public at large. I would suggest that over 99% of the Dragon/Dungeon readership gets into Dragon/Dungeon because they're already into D&D - they don't get into D&D because they're into Dragon/Dungeon.

Suggestion #2: With this in mind, the first thing that ought to go - at least in Dungeon - is full color. As gamers, we don't expect much outside of the core rulebooks to be done in color. It's a nice bonus, but we're used to B&W. We don't feel ripped off by it. If you feel like the maps deserve color, maybe put them in an insert section - I prefer clean, uncluttered B&W maps, myself, but I know some people prefer color with lots of flash (and thereby cluttered, IMO). But the maps are a neutral decision, IMO. Color or BW are fine with me. But the rest of the magazine doesn't need it - I don't pick up Module X from Company Y and expect a full-color interior. This alone will drop costs immensely.

Suggestion #3: Lose the Glossy Paper and for heaven's sake, lose the page borders! I use the margins in my adventures to note my own little changes, or note what the adventurers have done, etc. IMO, a little white space in the margins of an adventure is a good thing. It lets me customize things for my campaign. And losing the glossy paper lets me write in pencil for later erasure... and cuts costs.

Suggestion #4: Cut the ads down a touch... and cut Polyhedron down to as little of the content as possible. I am going to hazard a guess here, but my guess is that the vast majority of your *paid* subscriber revenue base upon merging the two magazines came from Dungeon, not Polyhedron. If I'm wrong here, ignore this suggestion. But focus on the Dungeon aspect, not the Polyhedron aspect of the magazine if this is indeed the case... don't go for an overall 50/50 split (60/40 alternating each month averages to 50/50); instead, aim for a 75/25 Dungeon/Poly split (and that may be too heavy on the Poly). Cut the comics. Cut anything "cute." This is DUNGEON - we want DUNGEONS (and adventures in general, but anything that is not an adventure or directly related to one is pretty much worthless IMO).

Swapping from full-color, glossy, bordered paper to B&W, no border, regular paper will drive your cost down considerably (I figure that B&W interior art will be cheaper than Full Color interior art, too - which drives production costs down even further).

Above all: remember, you're not really in the Magazine business with Dungeon - you're really in the "3 or 4 adventure modules per month" business - you just happen to have a core of subscribers who are those who will buy your offerings each month - treat Dungeon as such (i.e., not "magazine" but "module-producing company").

If you consider the above changes, you're much more likely to make a product that (a) has significantly higher profit margins due to lowered production costs, (b) will return the focus of the periodical to Dungeons, (c) add little "value added" things that gamers don't usually consciously notice (e.g., the "notes in the margin") - and that you probably don't always realize are in fact value-adders (remember, adding too much actually can drive down value; cutting away excess stuff can in fact be a value-added feature) and (d) appeals to me personally. ;)

--The Sigil
 

Actually, for all the carping you've done Sigil, those aren't bad suggestion. Except for cutting down the Ads - that's how they help recoup the cost of producing the mag - I can't see that happening.
 

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