Dungeon #99 - Is the end near?

I also buy DUNGEON for the POLY mini-games. I thought #99 was great. (A side benefit: One's opinion of HIJINX is a pretty good litmus test for whether I'd enjoy gaming with them.)

If I'm bitter about anything, it's that I just finished a long running adventure that involved the Githyanki invading my campaign world, about a week ago. Talk about bad timing...

My advice to people who don't like the current split of POLY and DUNGEON: cancel your subscriptions if you have 'em, and pick up the issues that have a more favorable content split.

I wasn't wild about #97 (no mini-game), and there will probably be a few "off-POLY" issues that I don't buy. Such is life.
 

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SneakyB said:
Count me amongst the masses who are getting really put-off by Dungeon... I absolutely will NOT be renewing unless some things change.

If 40% and alternately 60% of the content is completely useless to me, then I can see no reason to pay for such a subscription... I will evaluate purchasing the magazine using the same criteria I do for gaming products, which is pretty stringent.

Additionally, it seems to me as if everyone that writes in to the editor with a letter that negatively comments on the mix, pricing, etc. gets shot down rather rudely...

(Emphasis added)

I agree. I think that, although I can recall two of the poly mini-games being something that I'd like to see a little more added onto (preferably in future issues), such as the Pulp Era one and the Mutants of the Apocolypse one, I don't see why they don't do more on those cool settings in further issues rather than handing us this scooby doo crap. I don't subscribe to Dungeon right now, and I'm glad, especially when I read the derogatory, deriding, overly-sensitive, verbal-kick-in-the-crotch that they so smugly enjoy giving to their concerned fans.
 

I must disagree. The wide variety of subject matter seen in the mini-games is very important to the development of the hobby because it shows both skeptical gamers and designers just what d20 can do. Hijinx is very much the sort of thing that ought to become the norm in the RPG development community: small mini-games that take their one Big Idea, make it playable and not require a brand-new rulebook (etc.) because it doesn't need one.

Some of you may not thing this to be a big deal. You don't hang out on places like RPG Net, where the whole issue of d20 RPG development (and the massive misconceptions surrounding d20) is a major part of the constant politicking that goes on there. It's nice to know that Dungeon has its die-hard fans that show a great deal of concern for it, but there's more to what's going on in the hobby and Polyhedron is on the forefront of the push to maximize d20's penetration amongst both hobbiests and game designers. The fruits of this struggle are found in the FLGS: the conversions of L5R, CoC, 7th Sea, Gamma World, B5 (soon), Judge Dredd (it had a non-d20 version), Conan, Lone Wolf, Diablo II (however poorly), Warcraft III (soon), Stargate SG-1 (soon), Fading Suns, Traveller, Deadlands (no matter PEG's attempt to deliberately make a piss-poor conversion) and Star Wars. More games included d20 conversion notes. Why? Part of it--a big part--goes to the minigames showing players and designers what you can do with d20; that the games are fun, enjoyable games in their own right is just frosting on the cake.

For all this and more, I'm glad to have Polyhedron as the flip side to Dungeon.
 

The wide variety of subject matter seen in the mini-games is very important to the development of the hobby because it shows both skeptical gamers and designers just what d20 can do.
Some of us don't really care at all about multigenre d20, and wouldn't be disappointed if it disappeared tomorrow so long as D&D endured. As for caring what the forum denizens of RPG.net think...well, I'm trying to stifle a chuckle. ;)
 
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Just a word from the object of your hatred and hostility!

I know that many of you are feeling the pain of the change in Dungeon/Polyhedron and Polyhedron/Dungeon. Let me just explain what we were smoking for a few lines.

First of all, fulfillment houses charge a minimum fee for handling magazine subscription lists--even when they aren't shipping the magazines or making very many changes to the files (they also charge by the phone call and email for making those changes, but that is a different story). As a result, we were taking a significant hit every month on Dungeon/Polyhedron that wasn't helping our expense ledger and wasn't helping our readers. Worse than that, we were taking the hit in months when we received NO revenue but we had the expense, anyway. So, it seemed logical to go monthly so we could spread out that liability and remove a little of the pain by having some revenue in every month.

Now, some have asked why we didn't just split the magazines and have two bi-monthlies. Gee, then we'd have TWO monthly maintenance fees and ONE with no revenue every month. So, that wasn't a good solution.

Second, when I was Group Publisher at Wizards of the Coast, I was told to either kill Dungeon or kill Polyhedron. WotC had decided that we couldn't afford to publish both magazines. Yet, I believed and my staff believed that we could avoid those dire ends by combining the two magazines and selling them at a higher price. We had hoped that the combination of the two would provide for a higher paid circulation and would, in turn, attract more ads. Since the combined paid circulation was still 10,000 paid circulation below Dragon, most advertisers who could only advertise in one magazine opted for Dragon. The extra two dollars per copy was nice, but we only collected 90 cents of that and the print and paper billings were eating it up pretty quickly in returns. PLUS, the art and editorial bills were still the same as trying to fill two magazines.

At first, it looked like we were succeeding, but as we began to tally up the final numbers on Dungeon #93 and #94, we realized that we were breaking even on better selling issues and losing money on poor selling issues. This time, as president of Paizo, I was confronted with the same decision I had faced as group publisher at WotC. I either had to kill Dungeon or Polyhedron or both in order to keep my business from going down a slippery slope. The grand experiment we had started at Wizards of the Coast was failing. What could I do?

Here's what I thought I could do. I thought I could drop page count if I dropped the price by a dollar. I knew that sales would drop slightly on the newsstand with smaller issues and was using the 45 cents we were making on that extra dollar to ameliorate the lost sales tied to a smaller book. In the meantime, we would save money in postage, printing and paper per issue and that would be a net gain that could let us keep both magazines.

Our distributor didn't want us to drop the price. With astonishing foresight they told me that the readers would not notice the price decrease and unless the page count stayed the same, they would protest, anyway. I said that I had to reduce the page count and if I was going to reduce the page count, I was not about to keep the price the same. I might not cover all of the change, but I would at least give something back to the readers.

For subscribers, I extended the subscriptions of everyone who had two issues or more remaining (as of January 30, 2003) by an additional two issues. Those who had six or more remaining received four additional issues on their subscriptions. Those who had 12 or more issues remaining received six additional issues on their subscriptions. I know that this doesn't entirely even things out on the change, but instead of being the greedy bastard I've been portrayed as on these message boards, I was actually trying to ease a transition and give something back to the subscribers, even as I changed the product.

In addition, we give the subscribers an additional 16 pages in every issue where Polyhedron pages outnumber Dungeon pages. We receive no additional income for this, but we thought it was the right thing to do. Did this in Caesar seem ambitious? But the messageboards say we are ambitious and lo, they are honorable men (and women).

Even though we had already scheduled tons of coverage for Dungeon #100, I held the price at $6.99--even though it is basically at the $7.99 size. Did this in Caesar seem ambitious? But many of you have said we were greedy (and unethical and arrogant) and lo, you are honorable men (and women).

The truth is that I still think Dungeon/Polyhedron is a terrific buy at $6.99. I defy you to find that many full-color pages of adventure at that price. Yet, I have also heard what you are all saying. The good thing about the magazine business is that it is always changing. Every issue is a new product. SO, I'll make a deal with you. IF Dungeon/Polyhedron is still viable by Origins and GenCon time, I will listen to you all at the Paizo at the Mike conferences. At that time, I will discuss options with you and see what you think about other approaches we can try.

I will be away from Paizo doing volunteer work for the next 11 days, but I wanted to let all of you know that the arrogant powers at Paizo really do listen to what you have to say. In spite of those who claim that Dungeon has gone downhill, I can assure you that our efforts in creating the Adventure Path and in using the best talent available to write these adventures is part of our commitment to publishing a high quality Dungeon/Polyhedron with every issue. I know some of you wish I would just kill one or the other magazine and make things easy, but I'm not Solomon and I'm not sure I could make the right decision.

Sincerely,
Dr. Johnny L. Wilson
President, Paizo Publishing, LLC
Fat Greedy Bastard of All That's Evil in Publishing
 

Dear Mr. Wilson:

Please do not misinterpret the criticism of a small number of your readers as being representative of all current recipients of your magazine. I for one greatly appreciate your continued efforts to provide an excellent and entertaining magazine. If sales drop significantly as a result of the format changes then you may want to reconsider some of them, however, until that happens I would encourage you to continue with the present experiment. I have always enjoyed your magazine and am pleased to be receiving the subscription now on a monthly basis.

Sincerely,
SilverMoon
 


Thank you for your reply, Dr Wilson.

It really seems that the situation financially is extremely dire for Dungeon magazine - the constraints you are working under are... well, words fail me.

Good luck for the future, however. I'd hate to see Dungeon disappear - as much as I expect others would hate to see Polyhedron go. I've been very excited by how the Adventure Path is progressing, and I hope that you will be able to bring it to its ultimate conclusion.

Cheers!
 

I either had to kill Dungeon or Polyhedron or both in order to keep my business from going down a slippery slope. The grand experiment we had started at Wizards of the Coast was failing. What could I do?
We now have bits of Star Wars, Living Greyhawk, comics and d20 minigames cohabiting Dungeon. I think Dungeon subscribers are reacting badly because when it was all adventures they could see themselves using basically everything in every issue (despite the occasional whinge about campaign setting-specific adventures), whereas these days it's becoming a bit of a lucky dip as to whether you'll ever use a good deal of the magazine, ala Dragon. This "lucky dip of content" thing is one of the reasons why I never buy Dragon.

If subscribers were honest with themselves, they'd probably realise that they read rather than play most of most issues (as indicated by past survey results), and Polyhedron wouldn't seem such bad value, but it's the concept of one day being able to use something that matters. :) That's probably why there's a culture clash - for those who like D&D adventures, Dungeon mag's been too good for too long, and the concept of paying for pages which you'll probably never use in a game and can't ever see yourself using in a game is putting an end to what Dungeon subscribers took for granted...or, at least, that's my take on it, and pretty much the way I feel about it currently.
 
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response

Nice letter. I, for one, don't hate Poly attached to Dungeon. What I do resent is your massive cut on content for Dungeon. Monthly is great. Really nice. The 1 adventure per issue is not nice, and you know that Dungeon, while run by WOTC, ran 4 to 5 adventures per magazine. I understand your financial concern, but why not continue to produce Dungeon in the mold of #100 (4 adventures + Poly) and charge $7.99 staying bimonthly, rather than go monthly, have only 1 adventure per magazine and still raise the price? You can't possibly imagine how much of a rip-off that looks like to regular subscribers. Going from 4 to 5 adventures every other month for $7.99 to 2 (MAYBE 3) adventures every other month for $13.98? You cut your content by 50% and almost raised your price by 100%. What made you think your subscribers would take that?
 

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