Dungeon design help

[the Jester]

Did you arbitrarily choose the level of the swarm, or are there guidelines for designing a swarm somewhere that I've missed?

The campaign I'm playing has some mass combat approaching...

He may be using xp to figure the level of the swarm, e.g. "12 level 1 goblins are worth 1200 xp... a 1200 xp monster would be a level 15 standard or a level 11 elite."

I've been doing a lot of monster-as-swarm work in my epic game lately. I am unaware of any real standard for doing the conversion, but I'll vouch for the technique's utility. Instead of choosing a number of bad guys that the swarm represents, though, I'll usually go, "What level do I want this to be? ...now, how many individuals/what size swarm should this be?"

Let me give the example of a formation of hobgoblin warriors statted up as a swarm. Hobgoblins are heroic level monsters; to use them in an epic game, I'd picture the party of six 25th level pcs fighting off armies of hobgoblins. So let's say I want a huge mass of bad guys- I might use multiple swarms as normal 25th level swarms, call them Gargantuan sized and state that each 4x4 mass represents about 25 hobgoblins (I usually picture a swarm as tightly packed in formation in this kind of case and figure that they can fit more than the normal one-per-square number of individuals in their space). I'd also probably have each swarm, upon being destroyed, produce a few minions as last survivors.

 

[Balesir]

Did you arbitrarily choose the level of the swarm, or are there guidelines for designing a swarm somewhere that I've missed?

I'm not sure that it's a "rule", as such, but I go on equivalent XP values. Roughly speaking, XP value doubles each 4 levels increase, so it's possible to set up a scheme by which:

- A Standard monster may be represented by a Solo 9 levels lower, an Elite 4 levels lower or a Minion 8 levels higher.

- A number of monsters of level X may be represented by a swarm, where X = 4 for a swarm 8 levels higher, X = 8 for a swarm 12 levels higher, X = 16 for a swarm 16 levels higher and so on.

The numbers are quite convenient, since an "appropriate level" for a monster runs from (party level - 4) to (party level + 4), enabling some combination to cover most of a wide level range. For example, take a Battle Troll (MV pp.273), a Level 12 Standard Soldier and a Large Natural Humanoid. This could be represented (in varying numbers) as:

- A L3 Solo (750xp), a tough fight on its own for a party of level 1-3 or a boss for levels 3-7.

- A L8 Elite (700xp), a boss or one of a small group for parties of level 4-12.

- A L12 Standard (duh! - 700xp), part of an encounter for parties of level 8-16.

- A L16 Elite "swarm" of 4 trolls (2,800xp = 700xp per troll), for encounters with parties of level 12-20.

- A L20 Minion (700xp), to face parties of level 16-24.

- A L20 "swarm" of 4 trolls with size Huge (2,800xp = 700xp per troll), also to face parties of level 16-24.

- A L24 "swarm" of ~8 trolls (6,050xp = 756xp per troll), Gargantuan size and facing parties of level 20-28.

- A L28 "swarm" of ~18 trolls (13,000xp = 722xp per troll), if you are really keen!

This makes both large "plot arcs" with a specific type of monster as "the bad guys" possible, as well as sandboxes where particular creatures remain "relevant" on some level throughout the characters' careers.

EDIT: Ninjaed by [MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION], who spotted exactly what I was up to. And is, of course, right about being able to pick a level (presuming it's a good bit higher than the base creature's level) for the swarm, look up the XP value for that target level and then divide it by the XP value of the base creature to get a swarm size. Remembering that doubling that number as an "elite swarm" is also an option, and that the numbers really don't have to be exact.

 

[Rubik_the_Cube]

Just had this week's session and didn't end up making it to the clan-hold yet. I'm excited to have another week to work out some of the levels, although ajander's ideas helped a lot.

I don't think I'll use swarms of gnomes but I think, once we get plane hopping, swarms of demons are a real possibility based on what's been posted here.

- RtC

 

[Rubik_the_Cube]

Bad news ladies and gentlemen. I think the demons may have been using the dwarven brewing equipment to create a literal demon's brew. It seems to be giving demonic tendencies to anyone who consumes it, willing or unwilling, and they've been testing it on their gnomish "allies". Thankfully these creatures are more like the demon equivalent of vampiric thralls, at least for now.

- RtC

 

[Elboe]

The Book of Vile Darkness has a level 11 monster, Hordling Mob which is a demon swarm. If you have access to the online compendium search for swarm, but not just names. There are a few demon examples. Some of the other examples have interesting standard actions.

 

[LostSoul]

I don't know if this will be much help at this point in the game, but maybe you can still use something.

I'm thinking about Dwarf Fortress and how I used to build my forts.

Outside: There are two main entrances here: the main entrance - well guarded, with traps and murder holes and all that - that leads to a fancy trade depot. Nearby there are big, heavy stone doors, controlled by levers within the fortress, that lead to the storerooms. The murder holes are not accessible here; they lead to the barracks. There may be another lever-controlled door that leads to the barracks.

Encounter idea: The trade depot has become home to a small group of hill giants & their owlbear pets.

The other entrance is the fishing hole. Built over a river, it's a small keep with grates that allow fish to pass through but nothing larger. The keep has its own entrance (which leads to the archery training grounds and the barracks) and is not accessible from here. The entrance leads into the food preparation/storage areas and the kitchens. There may be one of those lever-controlled stone doors.

Encounter idea: A Skill Challenge to sneak through whatever controls the keep.

There may be a walled garden nearby the fishing hole, with battlements around the wall. The garden leads to the food preparation/storage areas and the kitchens; the battlements lead to the barracks.

Encounter idea: Manticores are using the garden as their lair.

There may be an alternate entrance, a gauntlet of traps.

Encounter idea: Traps, yeah.

Meeting Hall & Barracks: These are on the same level and are blocked by lever-controlled doors. From here you can access the main stair. In the meeting hall there is a well that connects to the Underground Lake.

Encounter idea: Demons - babau & vrocks, with their abyssal basilisk.

Kitchens & Food Prep: These link up to the meeting hall and the indoor gardens.

Encounter idea: ?? Normally I'd say slimes and oozes but I can't see any that would fit your level.

Indoor Gardens: Fungus farms and livestock pens. They link up to the butcher's area.

Encounter idea: Perhaps dryads, raised in level?

Workshops: Of all kinds - stonework, glasswork, bonework, woodwork, gemwork. They link up to the storerooms and the main stair.

Encounter idea: A walkthrough encounter with minion constructs. Not worth much if any XP.

Storerooms: Where the goods and crafts are stored. Big and cavernous.

Encounter idea: Stone Golem - that might fit your level budget, not sure.

Governmental: One level down the main stair. Bookkeeping & records, the crypts and tombs, and the jail cells.

Encounter idea: Obviously undead. Combine with a skill challenge to put them to rest.

Apartments: Far down the main stair are the living quarters of the dwarves.

Encounter idea: This is where the demonic gnoll swarms live.

Underground Lake & Cave: A massive cave full of monsters. Accessible from the main stair. A "keep" built into the stone blocks access.

Encounter idea: Anything underdark-ish: ropers, umber hulks, etc.

Magma Forge: Far, far down the main stair lies the heart of the fortress - the forges. Powered by the earth's heart, they provide weapons and the highest-value goods & crafts. There's a storeroom of metal ore here as well.

Encounter idea: The demons.

[sblock=HFS]Deep into the heart of the earth there are veins of adamantium. Mining these leads to a portal to Hell and/or the Abyss.[/sblock]

 

[Rubik_the_Cube]

LostSoul,

Thank you for the wealth of ideas. I wasn't familiar with Vrocks, but I think I like them for the encounter I'm working up for gaining entrance to the facility. As of last session, they have one of the dwarves with them who's home this is. He is very low level, the same level as when they met him, so one of their tasks right now is to keep him alive as long as possible so that he can act as a guide for them.

Now I've got an image of these Vrocks roosting around the entrance to the clan-hold and swooping down to try to get at this tasty dwarf while the party tries to get the door open and fight through some other demons/demonic gnomes. I just need some kind of active terrain now. Rock slides maybe? Or is that too easy for early paragon tier?

- Ryan