[Dungeon] Lich Queen's Beloved: Am I missing something? (spoilers)

[jasamcarl]

Oh, do please try to understand my posts before debating them.

The fact that you are unable to retort this is all i need to know.

 

[jasamcarl]

Actually, I can. See, 'pick-and-choose' is exactly how the game is designed. In addition, just because I don't use a crappy book in my game doesn't mean it isn't relevant to the conversation, since the book deals with ECL races, is a WotC product, and thus can be applied to the issue at hand (being the long-running war between two ECL races).

Wait, at first you try to derail a base canon that doesn't exist, now you are claiming that the game is in fact modular and decrying what? The fact that you can create an improbable setting for yourself? Jeez....

 

[jasamcarl]

Wait, at first you try to derail a base canon that doesn't exist, now you are claiming that the game is in fact modular and decrying what? The fact that you can create an improbable setting for yourself which isn't even consistent with the standard mechanics? Jeez....

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Again, no idea what the ECL of a mind flayer is - let's say 13, which means that you can be dominating 90% of most populations (people up to level 5) and not be getting any XP for it by the rules as written.

Dependant on methodology. True, individuals wouldn't be worth spit, but groups of beings increase their CR by measure of the group. Thus, even a bunch of 1st level Peons could produce a CR rating granting experience even though the Mind Flayer could wipe them out with little to know effort.

Also, a community in and of itself could be given a CR, and thus infiltrating and gaining control of that community would bring its rewards.

And all this ignores DM's fiat: Just slapping levels onto Mind Flayers because it can be done.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Wait, at first you try to derail a base canon that doesn't exist, now you are claiming that the game is in fact modular and decrying what? The fact that you can create an improbable setting for yourself? Jeez....

Like I said, if you are unable to comprehend what I'm saying (which, obviously, you can't or this rediculous post wouldn't exist), then please keep your distracting (although entertaining) commentary out of it. I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion about WotC's inability to properly handle their own material (incase you didn't notice).

 

[drnuncheon]

Actually, I can. See, 'pick-and-choose' is exactly how the game is designed. In addition, just because I don't use a crappy book in my game doesn't mean it isn't relevant to the conversation, since the book deals with ECL races, is a WotC product, and thus can be applied to the issue at hand (being the long-running war between two ECL races).

Pick-and-choose may be how the game is designed, but for two people to have an meaningful discussion about the implied world of the game, there needs to be a basis from which it can be discussed.

If we're doing 'pick-and-choose' then you could just as easily say that you were choosing not to use ECL at all, and that the mind flayers would advance just as quickly as any human.

Alternately, I could say that I was choosing to use the Psionics Handbook rules for the githyanki but not the mind flayers, and futher using the 'psionics are different' rule, thus rendering the illithids vulnerable to Gith psionics.

In neither case would the discussion be worth the time it took to write, because we're not basing our arguments on the same set of assumptions.

So: if you are going to have a discussion about the world which WOTC implies from its rules, then you need to talk about those rules. Otherwise you're not talking about what WOTC is implying at all. You're talking about the logical extension of your set of rules, which is a completely different thing.

J

 

[drnuncheon]

Dependant on methodology. True, individuals wouldn't be worth spit, but groups of beings increase their CR by measure of the group.

Not by the rules as written. CR does not change based on the size of the group (although Encounter Level does) - it is based on the individuals.

 

[Numion]

And all this ignores DM's fiat: Just slapping levels onto Mind Flayers because it can be done.

But since nowhere in the core books does it give information on Gith vs. Mind Flayer power levels in macroscopic scale (race vs. race), isn't speculating about that pretty moot? You're basically saying that one can add levels to mind flayers, and this directly leads to the demise of the Githyanki as written.

I admit that you can add levels to mind flayers. But I don't see how this would lead to Githyanki society being ridiculous. The core books don't tell you how many Illithid have levels, how many there are, how many of them plot the demise of the Gith, how many Gith there are, their levels or what are they doing.

As you can see there's no real direct cause and effect here. Rather you should look at the status quo (the Lich Queen exists), and deduct from there that there aren't enough levelled Illithids to kill her.

Remember also that DMG doesn't talk about awarding exp to monsters. Whole lot of your speculation rested somehow on monsters gaining steadily exp from doing monstrous things, while that hasn't been established. Savage Species tells how to give exp to monsters when they are PCs.

 

[buzzard]

Like I said, if you are unable to comprehend what I'm saying (which, obviously, you can't or this rediculous post wouldn't exist), then please keep your distracting (although entertaining) commentary out of it. I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion about WotC's inability to properly handle their own material (incase you didn't notice).

You know, being pompous doesn't suit you. Your arguments don't merit that sort of loftiness.

Your posts fairly well illustrate that you don't understand the rules. For example, when determining experience, one uses the CR of each individual creature and then sums them all up. The effects of multiple creatures merely affects the EL. Yes, the EL of 100 commoners may be high, but the experience from each would be nothing for a high level character. Thus, your mind flayer of high character level would have had to search far and wide to find challenges capable of advancing him in levels.

Also, it is a rule that you have to finish creature levels before taking class levels.

The Lich queen is described here as a CR 27 ( I haven't got the issue yet myself). That is a pretty damn tough customer. Just because she isn't the toughest thing in creation does not make her a creampuff.

buzzard

 

[Bendris Noulg]

So: if you are going to have a discussion about the world which WOTC implies from its rules, then you need to talk about those rules. Otherwise you're not talking about what WOTC is implying at all. You're talking about the logical extension of your set of rules, which is a completely different thing.

Actually, I keep discussion of my rules away from most boards (as they tend to start power-gamers and min-maxers on the war-path).

However, as the adventure being discussed picked from not one, not two, but three non-Core sources (MotP, PsiHB and ELH), than the existance and use of other non-Core sources should not be overlooked (lest we allow WotC to pick-and-choose for us, which, in my opinion, would really make for an uninteresting campaign).