[Dungeon] Lich Queen's Beloved: Am I missing something? (spoilers)

[The_Gneech]

I solved this in my campaigns with a wonderful invention called Paroxysm Arcana. It's a wonderful little magical disease, about 1000 years old, which starts removing the ability of mages and priests to cast their highest-level spells - one level at a time. Any high-level mage robbed of their highest level spells is NOT going to feel like going adventuring - they will likely fall back and try to figure out and cure what is ailing them. Let the PC's in on this little secret when they hit about 15th level or so, once their personalities of being do-gooders of legend have been established, and watch the fun when they figure out that, like Men in Black, Elminster wasn't training recruits - he is training replacements...

Whoa.

Now THAT'S cool! Serious bonus points for you!

YOINK!

Dear cattle,

We, the Illithid Empire, thank you for ridding us of the great Githyanki menace. For too long, their unified efforts to overthrow our rightful place as the dominant life form in all existance has been a great thorn in our side. Indeed, despite our ECL and class levels, none of our people were capable of taking her out. Nope, not so much as a scratch.

Thanks for doing what we, despite our great power, could never do previously. And, now that this road-block in our plans has been removed, you will be happy to know that the current lull in Mind Flayer domination is at an end. We sincerely appreciate your participation in restoring the true social order.

We do have one more favor to ask: Since you have become such heroic icons amongst the rest of the cattle races, kindly start shaving your craniums that such would become trendy amongst the common brain-donors. This will save us, your masters, an unmeasurable amount of time in the near future.

Sincerely,

One of One, Illithid Elder Brain Extraordinair

YOU WILL OBEY THE DALEKS OR YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED!

OBEY!

OBEY!

OBEY!

-The Gneech

 

[Numion]

Oh, I do so love how a few simple comments (of opinion, no less) get some folks in this community into an uproar. Great when that happens. As is, though, I do find it humorous that WotC has a policy of boosting PC powers while reducing the power of such iconic villains.

And, yes, I do believe that "cosmic entities" like the Lich Queen, Graazt, Orcus, Asmodeus, and the like should be balanced to each other and not to the PCs. After all, looking at the default setting and FR, each is loaded with numerous NPCs that, quite frankly, should have gotten the job done long before a few measely 18th level PCs should have. Adventures like this make me imagine the following scenario...

So, Greyhawk should only have threats of EL 30+, cause otherwise the Circle will take them out, and FR threats of EL 35+ or big El will deal with them?

 

[Bendris Noulg]

What is the ECL of an illithid anyway? In the teens? It'd take so many XP for one of them to get to first level that it'd hardly be worth it. That brings us to our second possibility: the rarity of levelled illithids. Sure, they can get levels, but the githyanki will in all probability have more.

Except for two things:

1. Savage Species changes the "playing field" of ECL and Class Levels entirely.

2. 14 equal challenges = 1 Level up

Both of these would indicate that leveled Illithids are more common than you would suggest.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

So, Greyhawk should only have threats of EL 30+, cause otherwise the Circle will take them out, and FR threats of EL 35+ or big El will deal with them?

Not to go that far, no. But, should the PCs fail, these settings tend to ensure that there's always an uber-NPC capable of stemming-off total world devestation. Which is my basic point: While the PCs are supposed to be "special" within their campaign worlds, the "official" worlds generally portray an image in which the characters are more or less there to handle the "light work". In contrast, the long-running super-villains of the cosmos are then presented in a fashion that makes them a suitable encounter for a "Core Level" party, making the high-level NPCs of the settings even more rediculous in comparison since, on a cosmic level, there seems to be little need for such characters.

Until, of course, the PCs reach that level and have slain all of the main published villains, possibly including a number of deities, in which case the DM is left to develop new uber-villains that no one has heard of before despite their great power and influence.

 

[Numion]

Not to go that far, no. But, should the PCs fail, these settings tend to ensure that there's always an uber-NPC capable of stemming-off total world devestation. Which is my basic point: While the PCs are supposed to be "special" within their campaign worlds, the "official" worlds generally portray an image in which the characters are more or less there to handle the "light work". In contrast, the long-running super-villains of the cosmos are then presented in a fashion that makes them a suitable encounter for a "Core Level" party, making the high-level NPCs of the settings even more rediculous in comparison since, on a cosmic level, there seems to be little need for such characters.

In regards to Dungeon #100 this is a non-issue. Dungeon magazines don't require other than the core books, and DMs can't speculate if someone else than the players group should take up on the adventure, because there are now big NPCs in the core books. It's also a non-issue for me in any setting because I'm not inclined to think about Elminsters doings in my spare time

Until, of course, the PCs reach that level and have slain all of the main published villains, possibly including a number of deities, in which case the DM is left to develop new uber-villains that no one has heard of before despite their great power and influence.

Isn't this true of all campaigns?

 

[jasamcarl]

Not to go that far, no. But, should the PCs fail, these settings tend to ensure that there's always an uber-NPC capable of stemming-off total world devestation. Which is my basic point: While the PCs are supposed to be "special" within their campaign worlds, the "official" worlds generally portray an image in which the characters are more or less there to handle the "light work". In contrast, the long-running super-villains of the cosmos are then presented in a fashion that makes them a suitable encounter for a "Core Level" party, making the high-level NPCs of the settings even more rediculous in comparison since, on a cosmic level, there seems to be little need for such characters.

Until, of course, the PCs reach that level and have slain all of the main published villains, possibly including a number of deities, in which case the DM is left to develop new uber-villains that no one has heard of before despite their great power and influence.

You are being ridiculous. You are making wide campaign assumptions about a lot of thing, notably the timing of the threats as well as the activities of all the high-level NPCs. Fundementally, you are asking 'Why hasn't this setting sorted itself out?' What you do not seem to understand is that PCs are suppossed to play the roll of sorting it out. You feel the need to create a perfectly functioning model in your mind that exists absent the pcs, when in fact the entire justification of a setting's existence is to provide conflicts the pcs can resolve. The existence of powerful npcs does not preclude that. You are suppossed to assume that the pcs are the ones doing the enemy slaying that day.

 

[drnuncheon]

Except for two things:

1. Savage Species changes the "playing field" of ECL and Class Levels entirely.

In what way that is relevant to the issue at hand, though? You still need to gain (your ECL * 1000 xp) to get your first class level if you have ECL X, do you not?

2. 14 equal challenges = 1 Level up

Both of these would indicate that leveled Illithids are more common than you would suggest.

That presumes that the illithids are facing equal challenges. If they have ECL 12 (or whatever) and they are mostly going around dominating low-level humans and humanoids as part of their master plan to do whatever, then they're not getting a thing.

J

 

[Bendris Noulg]

In what way that is relevant to the issue at hand, though? You still need to gain (your ECL * 1000 xp) to get your first class level if you have ECL X, do you not?

You are under no obligation to take Race Levels before taking Class Levels. Indeed, you can mix and match them.

(As a side note, I don't like "Race Levels", since it relates physical maturity to experience, which is silly in some regards... I much prefer "Age Templates" related to chronological progression.)

That presumes that the illithids are facing equal challenges. If they have ECL 12 (or whatever) and they are mostly going around dominating low-level humans and humanoids as part of their master plan to do whatever, then they're not getting a thing.

True, although your counter-stance presumes that they aren't. It also presumes that the only thralls they are enthralling are low-level, which needs not be the case (indeed, it would be counter-productive to not target higher-level beings at all).

 

[jasamcarl]

If Bendris were to be presented with a backdrop with nothing but low-level commoners, but the usual assortment of challenges, he would cry that 'the monsters would have taken over by now' regardless of how those challenges were introduced by the DM. I don't think heroic pc action plays much of a role in his thinking; the trademark of an egocentric DM who uses the game only as a pretense to force his fictional reality on his players.

 

[Numion]

You are under no obligation to take Race Levels before taking Class Levels. Indeed, you can mix and match them.

Isn't this a house rule? IIRC Savage Species states that you have to take the whole racial class before any other levels.