[Dungeon] Lich Queen's Beloved: Am I missing something? (spoilers)

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Upper_Krust said:
Hi Numion mate! :)

Hi U_K!

Agreed (on both points :D ) which is why I would advocate using Avatars for non-epic/immortal interaction while using full fledged Deities for more powerful campaigns.

That way, everyones a winner, and if the DM in question wants to make the Avatar the actual representation of the deity they are of course free to do so.

Isn't using "oh that was just an avatar you defeated" a bit of a cop-out? Reminds me of the Spinal Taps amplifier that went to eleven, to which the interviewer asks "why not just make 10 more, and make that the highest?". Why isn't 25th level lich sorcerer enough?

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Originally posted by Numion
EDIT: So which one is more important:

1) That cosmic balance be preserved: 18th level PCs can insult Lich Queens butler and get away with it if they're lucky.

2) That players can have the satisfaction accomplishing something important: at 20th level they're among some of the most powerful beings in the world.
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Why can't you have both!?

Because if you say to your group after they've just barely defeated a 25th level Lich Queen that "She was just her avatar, and guess what, the real Momma is pissed!!" they're not going to be happy. A more satisfying conclusion to the adventure would be that they really had accomplished something, and next adventure wouldn't be about the real lich queens wrath, but something else entirely.
 
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Hi jasamcarl matey! :D

jasamcarl said:
Uh, because most people don't give a damn about the now vague core setting beyond its direct combat effects on the pcs.

Agreed, but I think a lot of that stems from the fact that WotC themselves seem to care very little for it.

jasamcarl said:
And because everyone has a different idea of exactly how that setting works.

Face it, they are nothing more than adventure hooks, not some holy preserve for those who like to contrive their own 'canon' from previous editions.

True, which was why I showed above how you can have it both ways.

jasamcarl said:
If you don't want the Lich Queen to be a reasonable opponent, fine. Don't use the adventure. This was obviously intended for those groups who actually want their pcs to have an epic-calibre effect on a gaming world and have thier characters be at the center of a campaign. (Perfectly fitting with pre-tokien mythology).

Indeed. In fact you are making the same point I made in one of my previous posts.
 

Numion said:

Hello again mate! :)

Numion said:
Isn't using "oh that was just an avatar you defeated" a bit of a cop-out? Reminds me of the Spinal Taps amplifier that went to eleven, to which the interviewer asks "why not just make 10 more, and make that the highest?". Why isn't 25th level lich sorcerer enough?

Because if you say to your group after they've just barely defeated a 25th level Lich Queen that "She was just her avatar, and guess what, the real Momma is pissed!!" they're not going to be happy. A more satisfying conclusion to the adventure would be that they really had accomplished something, and next adventure wouldn't be about the real lich queens wrath, but something else entirely.

Actually you have picked up on my comments incorrectly.

My suggestion was that DMs who do not want to run epic/immortal campaigns can use the Avatar version transplanting the real incarnation tailored specifically for epic/immortal campaigns/cosmologies.

So if you want the Avatar to be the 'real' version for your campaign you are free to do so. :)
 

Upper_Krust said:

So if you want the Avatar to be the 'real' version for your campaign you are free to do so. :)

And you can make the Real version in Dungeon #100 just the avatar. Now what were we arguing about? :D
 

Upper_Krust said:


Hello again mate! :)



Actually you have picked up on my comments incorrectly.

My suggestion was that DMs who do not want to run epic/immortal campaigns can use the Avatar version transplanting the real incarnation tailored specifically for epic/immortal campaigns/cosmologies.

So if you want the Avatar to be the 'real' version for your campaign you are free to do so. :)

Again, this goes back to that usual debate over at what point does Wotc draw the line in terms of balancing the viability of an adventure in as large a number campaigns as possible with page number. They could have made the lich queen at 18th level or 40, but they chose what they believed would be the most applicable level given the (meagre) background and expectations of most campaigns. If anything, 18th would be a better choice than 40.

And in any case, what is your problem in this case? Given the straightforward nature of the epic rules, scaling a 25th level sorcerer lich is dead simple. Why do you need an official source to validate and detail every aspect of your campaign, and why do you refuse to admit that you are in a small minority on these points. Yes Wotc could try to persuade the general gaming public to play at high level and have respect for a static canon storyline (ignoring the fact that this is at heart a GAME), but why should they when a majority play at low-mid levels and prefer the relative lack of complexity that comes with that?

I really think some people have to stop daydreaming and acknowledge this as a SOCIAL medium, but that is just me.....
 

Oh, I do so love how a few simple comments (of opinion, no less) get some folks in this community into an uproar. Great when that happens. As is, though, I do find it humorous that WotC has a policy of boosting PC powers while reducing the power of such iconic villains.

And, yes, I do believe that "cosmic entities" like the Lich Queen, Graazt, Orcus, Asmodeus, and the like should be balanced to each other and not to the PCs. After all, looking at the default setting and FR, each is loaded with numerous NPCs that, quite frankly, should have gotten the job done long before a few measely 18th level PCs should have. Adventures like this make me imagine the following scenario...

Elminster: "Okay, my lackies... ehr, I mean friends... I have a pressing date with... ehr, I mean mission for the goddess of magic. I need you to take care of some light work while I'm, shall we say, predisposed."

Wimpy PC Underling that only casts 9th Level Spells: "And what would that be, oh mighty mage that could mop the floor with Torm's wig?"

Elminster: "Take out that pesky Lich-Queen of the Githyanki. I'd do it, but I'm far too overpowered for her CR to handle."


:rolleyes: ;) :D
 

Bendris Noulg said:
After all, looking at the default setting and FR, each is loaded with numerous NPCs that, quite frankly, should have gotten the job done long before a few measely 18th level PCs should have.

I solved this in my campaigns with a wonderful invention called Paroxysm Arcana. It's a wonderful little magical disease, about 1000 years old, which starts removing the ability of mages and priests to cast their highest-level spells - one level at a time. Any high-level mage robbed of their highest level spells is NOT going to feel like going adventuring - they will likely fall back and try to figure out and cure what is ailing them. Let the PC's in on this little secret when they hit about 15th level or so, once their personalities of being do-gooders of legend have been established, and watch the fun when they figure out that, like Men in Black, Elminster wasn't training recruits - he is training replacements... :)
 

My thoughts on the issue:

I haven't received my copy of the magazine yet but from what I've gathered from the posts here I'd like to, first and foremost, thank Paizo for publishing what to me is the ideal adventure. I've been a fan of Githyanki since I first layed eyes on the cover of the 1st edition Fiend Folio and long thought them to be underused and underappreciated. I find them to be just as interesting (if not more) than the infamous Drow and have often wondered why they never featured as central antagonist in a setting or adventure.

Second, the debate as to the power level of the Lich-Queen is moot. As others have said, no two campaigns are the same. To say that Elminster or a similar character should take care of the Lich-Queen assumes that Elminster (or someone like him) even exists in every campaign.

Question to those who have received their copy of the magazine: Does the adventure make any allowance for psionics?
 

Henry said:
I solved this in my campaigns with a wonderful invention called Paroxysm Arcana....
That's actually pretty neat. I like that. Nice touch.

However, another point on taking out the Lich-Queen is that, hisorically, she has not had much interest in the affairs of other races outside of being a constant disruption of Mind Flayer activity. Indeed, until now, she's often been portrayed as one of the "necessary evils" of the D&D cosmos, since she keeps the Githyanki strong and the Githyanki keep the Mind Flayers from succeeding in many of their schemes for cosmic domination.

Hmmm... That would be neat in and of itself.

Dear cattle,

We, the Illithid Empire, thank you for ridding us of the great Githyanki menace. For too long, their unified efforts to overthrow our rightful place as the dominant life form in all existance has been a great thorn in our side. Indeed, despite our ECL and class levels, none of our people were capable of taking her out. Nope, not so much as a scratch.

Thanks for doing what we, despite our great power, could never do previously. And, now that this road-block in our plans has been removed, you will be happy to know that the current lull in Mind Flayer domination is at an end. We sincerely appreciate your participation in restoring the true social order.

We do have one more favor to ask: Since you have become such heroic icons amongst the rest of the cattle races, kindly start shaving your craniums that such would become trendy amongst the common brain-donors. This will save us, your masters, an unmeasurable amount of time in the near future.

Sincerely,

One of One, Illithid Elder Brain Extraordinair


Okay, I guess I'm having fun with this topic, but I think what I'm saying is rather clear: Considering the long-time enemies of the Githyanki are the Mind Flayers, and given that Mind Flayers can now enjoy Class Levels like any other race, one must ask how such an adventure is possible to begin with: If she isn't of extra-ordinairily higher level than previously (or enjoying some degree of "virtual godhood" as the 1E Fiend Folio describes), than there's no justification for her (and the rest of the Gith) surviving against the Mind Flayers for as long as they have. Yet, this is the situation they (WotC) created when they stat-out such a being so that a "Core Level" party can face her in combat.

Just seems silly.

And, no, this isn't so much about canon as it is about mixing canon with incompatible 3E concepts. For instance, the Lich-Queen's tendancy to destroy Githyanki of X level made sense in 1E and 2E, because it took different Mind Flayer "breeds" to become more powerful, and none reached the power level of the Lich-queen herself (except for the Elder Brain, although this creature itself is immobilized and thus not entirely a threat). In 3E, this condition is changed in that Mind Flayers may gain levels and thus may, as individuals, become increasingly powerful (which is a good thing). However, this change needs to be countered by another change; By retaining the "canon" levels of the Lich-Queen and her attrition of high-level Githyanki, WotC has now created a dispondancy of power between the two forces that fails to justify the long-standing conflict that WotC have themselves continued into 3E.

And that's why I find her stats/level a laughable situation: WotC has dropped the ball yet again, showing how their own unwillingness (inability?) to go all-out with their own rules system is creating a "new canon" that makes little to no sense due to a continuously growing increase in contradictions, mismatches and over-sights.
 

Bendris Noulg said:
And, no, this isn't so much about canon as it is about mixing canon with incompatible 3E concepts. For instance, the Lich-Queen's tendancy to destroy Githyanki of X level made sense in 1E and 2E, because it took different Mind Flayer "breeds" to become more powerful, and none reached the power level of the Lich-queen herself (except for the Elder Brain, although this creature itself is immobilized and thus not entirely a threat). In 3E, this condition is changed in that Mind Flayers may gain levels and thus may, as individuals, become increasingly powerful (which is a good thing). However, this change needs to be countered by another change; By retaining the "canon" levels of the Lich-Queen and her attrition of high-level Githyanki, WotC has now created a dispondancy of power between the two forces that fails to justify the long-standing conflict that WotC have themselves continued into 3E.

One can, with sufficient thought, come up with a variety of reasons why the githyanki, despite their effective level cap and their lich-queen, are still a threat to the mind flayers.

Numbers is probably the classic solution. Sure, the mind flayers can have high-level people - but if there are hundreds of times as many githyanki as there are illithids, that's not going to make much difference that you've got some illithids that are 4th or 5th level.

What is the ECL of an illithid anyway? In the teens? It'd take so many XP for one of them to get to first level that it'd hardly be worth it. That brings us to our second possibility: the rarity of levelled illithids. Sure, they can get levels, but the githyanki will in all probability have more.

Third, there's the dragons. 'nuff said.

J
 

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