[Dungeon] Lich Queen's Beloved: Am I missing something? (spoilers)

[drnuncheon]

The thing to remember is that power is relative. If your 18th-level players are among the most powerful people in your gameverse, then having her be 25th level is just fine, because she is a mainstay of the cosmos then.

Not everyone plays in games with 40th-level plane-spanning heros, after all.

J

 

[jester47]

To paraphrase William S Burroughs in "the mummy piece"

"Thats why they have to have thier Phylacteries hid good."

The adventure is somthing like 40 pages in length. I would say that it would probably make a good capstone to a long campaign.

We are talking about taking on an epic level lich, guarded by liches, on the astral plane (astral dreadnaughts anyone?), in an adventure that spans just over 40 pages. Sounds fine to me. Granted Mordenkinen is level 27.

I tend to remember that The Harrowing (Monte Cook) was 35 pages (w/o pics) and started with 15th level characters (Dungeon 84). So level 25 seems right to me.

More info on the Lich Queen is always appreciated. IMC she is a follower of Vecna...

Aaron.

 

[Numion]

I always love hearing the fan-trite of those more interested in having products accomodate the world in their head as oppossed to something that can actually be played and enjoyed socially.. Funny

Exactly!

It wouldn't make for a very exciting setting if all the outsiders gygax sometime in the past honored by giving them a name were pumped to the CR 50+ range. Stats for these 'named individuals' aren't very usable if they aren't defeatable by characters at the end of a normal campaign (and no, Upper_Krust, your campaigns are not normal level ).

Some DMs seem more intrested in the named outsiders combat performance against each other, instead of their abilities against a group of PCs. But why would the Lich Queens (or any other outsiders') stats come in to play if not for fighting against the PCs? Do some DMs actually pit demon lords against each other, playing them both with the normal rules?

EDIT: So which one is more important:

1) That cosmic balance be preserved: 18th level PCs can insult Lich Queens butler and get away with it if they're lucky.

2) That players can have the satisfaction accomplishing something important: at 20th level they're among some of the most powerful beings in the world.

 

[hong]

2) That players can have the satisfaction accomplishing something important: at 20th level they're among some of the most powerful beings in the world.

However, that is anathema to the <s>powergaming</s> storytelling DM, who must always be the most powerful being in his world.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi jasamcarl matey!

I always love hearing the fan-trite of those more interested in having products accomodate the world in their head as oppossed to something that can actually be played and enjoyed socially.. Funny

I don't see why you can't have both!?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi ashockney mate!

She sounds about the right challenge level for a party of 18th level characters. A tough fight, but a good challenge.

Where is everyone getting this "history" for a lich queen from? Was this an obscure reference somewhere from 1st Edition (like the Fiend Folio)? Were there ever stats published on her before?

I just checked the 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes and it mentions she is rumoured to be between 24th-30th level (magic-user) with the powers of a Demigoddess* while in the Astral Plane...which makes sense considered she is revered by the Githyanki.

*Sounds a lot better to me.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Numion mate!

Exactly!

It wouldn't make for a very exciting setting if all the outsiders gygax sometime in the past honored by giving them a name were pumped to the CR 50+ range.

Well then I would suggest you be careful using the stats in the Book of Vile Darkness since all the Archfiend CRs therein are wrong...even by WotCs reckoning! At the very least treat them as difficult challenges at the given CRs rather than moderate ones!

The flaws of the official CR system were highlighted when you realise that Demogorgon had several servants (listed in that book) who were supposedly higher CR than Graz'zt and Yeenoghu! But whose stats really didn't bear this out.

Stats for these 'named individuals' aren't very usable if they aren't defeatable by characters at the end of a normal campaign (and no, Upper_Krust, your campaigns are not normal level ).

Agreed (on both points ) which is why I would advocate using Avatars for non-epic/immortal interaction while using full fledged Deities for more powerful campaigns.

That way, everyones a winner, and if the DM in question wants to make the Avatar the actual representation of the deity they are of course free to do so.

Unfortunately WotC squandered this opportunity within Deities & Demigods because they made the Avatars pretty much as powerful as the gods, which was a bit silly on a number of levels.

Some DMs seem more intrested in the named outsiders combat performance against each other, instead of their abilities against a group of PCs. But why would the Lich Queens (or any other outsiders') stats come in to play if not for fighting against the PCs? Do some DMs actually pit demon lords against each other, playing them both with the normal rules?

Yes.

EDIT: So which one is more important:

1) That cosmic balance be preserved: 18th level PCs can insult Lich Queens butler and get away with it if they're lucky.

2) That players can have the satisfaction accomplishing something important: at 20th level they're among some of the most powerful beings in the world.

Why can't you have both!?

 

[jasamcarl]

Hi Numion mate!



Well then I would suggest you be careful using the stats in the Book of Vile Darkness since all the Archfiend CRs therein are wrong...even by WotCs reckoning! At the very least treat them as difficult challenges at the given CRs rather than moderate ones!

The flaws of the official CR system were highlighted when you realise that Demogorgon had several servants (listed in that book) who were supposedly higher CR than Graz'zt and Yeenoghu! But whose stats really didn't bear this out.



Agreed (on both points ) which is why I would advocate using Avatars for non-epic/immortal interaction while using full fledged Deities for more powerful campaigns.

That way, everyones a winner, and if the DM in question wants to make the Avatar the actual representation of the deity they are of course free to do so.

Unfortunately WotC squandered this opportunity within Deities & Demigods because they made the Avatars pretty much as powerful as the gods, which was a bit silly on a number of levels.



Yes.



Why can't you have both!?

Uh, because most people don't give a damn about the now vague core setting beyond its direct combat effects on the pcs. And because everyone has a different idea of exactly how that setting works. Face it, they are nothing more than adventure hooks, not some holy preserve for those who like to contrive their own 'canon' from previous editions. If you don't want the Lich Queen to be a reasonable opponent, fine. Don't use the adventure. This was obviously intended for those groups who actually want their pcs to have an epic-calibre effect on a gaming world and have thier characters be at the center of a campaign. (Perfectly fitting with pre-tokien mythology).

 

[Henry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: [Dungeon] Lich Queen's Beloved: Am I missing something? (spoilers)

I guess it's just my opinion that such figures ("Iconic Villains", so to speak) make for poor adventure antagonists. For instance, a quest to slay the Githyanki Lich-Queen would, for me, be a campaign-ending event, the culmination of years of adventuring. I'm all for WotC (and anyone else) making such beings ultra-high level; I just hate such beings used in a manner as to be low level (in relation to setting) and included in "any ol' adventure."

I see it a little differently myself, because if these characters are close to 20th level by the time they are in a position to fight her, then this would be the campaign-stopping adventure. I kind of like it when Dungeon includes one of those occasionally, because it's nice to get an idea of people's different takes on the "closure" of a campaign.

So far, I've only played in ONE campaign that went to its conclusion. Every other one has stopped because of players moving, DM's losing interest, or some such.

 

[Mort]

I’m actually all for this kind of adventure, I was just concerned about the relative power level (maybe it’s just a reflection on my non-uberized non-optimized group, but if I ran the adventure like it’s meant to be run they’d likely be toast – then again they generally manage to surprise me.)

I think it’s great that Dungeon includes an adventure that could be a campaign ender – or it could be a great campaign pivot and introduction to epic play – sort of a "guess you guys are ready to play with the big boys" turning point.