[Dungeon] Top 30 Greatest Adventures Discussion (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Glyfair
- Start date
Orcus
First Post
I'm glad Erik gave permission for us to post our lists. Mine is, not surprisingly, slanted to an old school vibe. I dont agree with all of the final results. I dont like the "return to" modules. I thought in every case the originals are better. I am also surprised that Pramas didnt know that the first published module is actually NOT Temple of the Frog. 
And I am shocked that FoF is on the list. Who voted for that?
Anyway, here is what I sent to Erik.
TOP 10 MODULES OF ALL TIME
1. Tomb of Horrors. This is the definitive module. It is not the best from a playability standpoint, but for sheer Gygaxian genius, which is what D&D is all about, it has no peer. This module has "total party kill" written all over it. Not just in one spot, but in practically every room, trap or encounter. The false lich. The introduction of the demi-lich. Plus, it is a high level adventure and those are so hard to write. The one knock on Tomb of Horrors is that it is so evil, so fully trapped and the PCs are so aware that a wrong turn means death that it can slow play to a crawl. But for pure inspired genius it is unmatched. Plus, to top off what is already perfection, two words: "player handouts." And with Trampier art I might add!
2. Tie: Hall of the Fire Giant King and Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl. I might have to give it to Fire Giant by a nose, mostly for sheer size and scope and because it provides the first real taste of the then mysterious (now ubiquitous) drow. From the Trampier art to the great encounters, these babies have it all. The physical setting of Frost Giant is better. The rift is just such a cool setting for an adventure. It was probably the first module to be something more than a building, dungeon or caves. The rift itself was very unique. If Frost Giant had a third level, it might edge Fire Giant. For some reason, Frost Giant always plays the best of the Giant series. And for some reason the battles are always epic. It is just balanced perfectly to AD&D, in an old school way. No goofy ELs here.
3. Judges Guild’s Caverns of Thracia. Bill likes Thieves' Fortress, but I like Thracia. This module to me is what Judges Guild is all about. Great writing and design by Paul Jaquays. Great ideas, but plenty of room for you to flesh out in the way that classic products let you but that is for some reason seen as a bad thing these days.
4. Keep on the Borderlands. More players probably started their campaigns with this module than any other module in the history of gaming. And that right there qualifies it as being in the top 10. You have to put Village of Homlet in this category too, but I like the Caves of Chaos from Borderlands way better than the ruined keep from Homlet. Plus, Homlet doesn’t stand on its own and Borderlands does.
5. Vault of the Drow. Wow. Nothing like this had been done before (or, frankly, since). Sure, Judges Guild had done the City State of the Invincible Overlord, but this was an underground city of evil monsters—the drow, who, then, were new and mysterious as opposed to tired and overused as they are today. The Fane. Lolth. The Vampire/Succubus encounter before you even get to the city. More Gygaxian genius.
6. Palace of the Vampire Queen by Wee Warriors. What is a top 10 list without this one—the very first module ever produced, even before TSR. Just like “Video Killed the Radio Star” makes video top 10 lists because it was the first video ever played on MTV, Vampire Queen will forever go down in history as the first module ever made (even though they called it a “DM Kit”), and it was done by a tiny little independent company called Wee Warriors run by Pat and Judy Kerestan. Sure, Temple of the Frog appeared in the Blackmoor supplement as an adventure, but Vampire Queen was the first module published just as a module.
7. White Plume Mountain. The three artifacts, Wave, Whelm and Blackrazor. Heck, you could chuck out the first two and just have Blackrazor and this thing is a classic. I can't tell you how many players have wanted to take on WPM just to try to get Blackrazor. Because what kid playing D&D in the early 80s like me didn’t want to have Elric's sword? Everyone, duh! And the design—the cheesy puzzles, one-off rooms clearly designed to challenge adventurers and not for any practical purpose. I love it! That is D&D to me. I know that to many people, these things I am calling strengths are what they consider its problems. To those people I say "get a life, its a game." The only black mark on the module is the lack of detail on the wizard rooms above and the efreets that intervene in the end. I wanted that stuff detailed out, which is saying alot for me since I normally love a little room for expansion. But in this case, it hurt the module.
8. Greyhawk Ruins. I know there are Greyhawk pursits who will kill me for this, since this module wasn’t written by Gygax, but it was amazing to finally have the ruins of Greyhawk detailed, particularly after the embarrassing garbage that was the Castle Greyhawk module. This module is gi-normous, far surpassing anything else in size and scope. Even the love-it-or-hate-it Undermountain doesn’t come close to this many rooms and this much detail.
9. The Desert of Desolation series (Pharoah, Oasis of the White Palm and the Lost Tomb of Martek). I didn’t want to put a series of modules as a winner, since Giants and Drow could so easily have made the top 10, but I thought that this series was so good and so tight that it needed to be included as a series.
10. The original Ravenloft. This module spawned a setting. It had amazing maps, a great NPC antagonist—perhaps one of the best villains of all time behind Acererak the demi-lich and Eclavdra from the G-D Series. You could arguably put the first few Dragonlance modules here, but no single one of them is better than Ravenloft and the series as a whole is weak except for the first few. So Ravenloft takes it.
I have to admit, I really wanted to put one of my own modules in the top 10, but the ones above are just better.
Runners Up:
These ones were really hard to leave out of the top 10.
11. Judges Guild’s Dark Tower. A total dungeon classic that embodies the coolness that is Judges Guild.
12. Village of Homlet. More Gygaxian flavor and a total classic campaign starter.
13. Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. A hugely overlooked module. The second module ever written (behind Wee Warriors’ Palace of the Vampire Queen) and its original form is one of the most collectable modules ever.
14. The Dragonlance series (the first few). The first ones were good. Great story. Interesting setting. Great NPCs and adventure locations. And more awesome maps like Ravenloft. Maybe some of the only Second Edition stuff that I can tolerate.
15. Necromancer Games’ Rappan Athuk series. I thought we hit a First Edition home run with these three modules. Tomb of Abysthor (which was inspired in part by the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and the Temple of the Frog) is a better individual module, but the RA series just rules. Plus I guess I just thought it was too cheesy to put one of my own adventures in the top 10.
[edit: though now that I see the LAME Forge of Fury in the list, I think maybe I should have. --Clark]
HONORABLE MENTION
1. Masks of Nyarlathotep for Call of Cthulhu. This is the best designed adventures of all times for any game system, period. It is that good. Certianly in scope and depth, this thing is unmatched. And on top of that it is for Call of Cthulhu, which may be one of the hardest games to design for both from a playability standpoint and from a literary one. It is nearly impossible to have a good extended CoC campaign because of the high rate of character death, but this thing pulls it off. Plus, the story is so Lovecraftian. You really feel the mythos. It is so true to the subject matter. If this were a D&D module it would be on the top of my list right there with Tomb of Horrors.
2. Gygax's Necropolis for Lejendary Adventures. This module just blew me away when I got the original. Necromancer Games redid it for d20, and I am tempted to put Necro’s conversion in the main list as a d20 module, but I don’t think that is right since it was just a conversion. Necropolis is a LA module, not a D&D module, despite the fact I think Necro’s conversion rules. This is right up there with Masks.
3. Twilight's Peak for Traveller. This is an amazing adventure. It took the dungeon concept and ported it to a future setting. With a great story, a great build up, and a challenging and significant conclusion that impacts any campaign that includes it. Very well done. And Traveller had some excellent “double adventures,” like Chamax Plague/Horde, Shadows/Annic Nova, and Argon Gambit/Death Station. Classic Traveller is one of the best game series that has ever been created in my opinion and deserves far more credit and recognition than it gets. If it were a D&D module it would easily be in my top 10.
Clark
And I am shocked that FoF is on the list. Who voted for that? Anyway, here is what I sent to Erik.
TOP 10 MODULES OF ALL TIME
1. Tomb of Horrors. This is the definitive module. It is not the best from a playability standpoint, but for sheer Gygaxian genius, which is what D&D is all about, it has no peer. This module has "total party kill" written all over it. Not just in one spot, but in practically every room, trap or encounter. The false lich. The introduction of the demi-lich. Plus, it is a high level adventure and those are so hard to write. The one knock on Tomb of Horrors is that it is so evil, so fully trapped and the PCs are so aware that a wrong turn means death that it can slow play to a crawl. But for pure inspired genius it is unmatched. Plus, to top off what is already perfection, two words: "player handouts." And with Trampier art I might add!
2. Tie: Hall of the Fire Giant King and Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl. I might have to give it to Fire Giant by a nose, mostly for sheer size and scope and because it provides the first real taste of the then mysterious (now ubiquitous) drow. From the Trampier art to the great encounters, these babies have it all. The physical setting of Frost Giant is better. The rift is just such a cool setting for an adventure. It was probably the first module to be something more than a building, dungeon or caves. The rift itself was very unique. If Frost Giant had a third level, it might edge Fire Giant. For some reason, Frost Giant always plays the best of the Giant series. And for some reason the battles are always epic. It is just balanced perfectly to AD&D, in an old school way. No goofy ELs here.
3. Judges Guild’s Caverns of Thracia. Bill likes Thieves' Fortress, but I like Thracia. This module to me is what Judges Guild is all about. Great writing and design by Paul Jaquays. Great ideas, but plenty of room for you to flesh out in the way that classic products let you but that is for some reason seen as a bad thing these days.
4. Keep on the Borderlands. More players probably started their campaigns with this module than any other module in the history of gaming. And that right there qualifies it as being in the top 10. You have to put Village of Homlet in this category too, but I like the Caves of Chaos from Borderlands way better than the ruined keep from Homlet. Plus, Homlet doesn’t stand on its own and Borderlands does.
5. Vault of the Drow. Wow. Nothing like this had been done before (or, frankly, since). Sure, Judges Guild had done the City State of the Invincible Overlord, but this was an underground city of evil monsters—the drow, who, then, were new and mysterious as opposed to tired and overused as they are today. The Fane. Lolth. The Vampire/Succubus encounter before you even get to the city. More Gygaxian genius.
6. Palace of the Vampire Queen by Wee Warriors. What is a top 10 list without this one—the very first module ever produced, even before TSR. Just like “Video Killed the Radio Star” makes video top 10 lists because it was the first video ever played on MTV, Vampire Queen will forever go down in history as the first module ever made (even though they called it a “DM Kit”), and it was done by a tiny little independent company called Wee Warriors run by Pat and Judy Kerestan. Sure, Temple of the Frog appeared in the Blackmoor supplement as an adventure, but Vampire Queen was the first module published just as a module.
7. White Plume Mountain. The three artifacts, Wave, Whelm and Blackrazor. Heck, you could chuck out the first two and just have Blackrazor and this thing is a classic. I can't tell you how many players have wanted to take on WPM just to try to get Blackrazor. Because what kid playing D&D in the early 80s like me didn’t want to have Elric's sword? Everyone, duh! And the design—the cheesy puzzles, one-off rooms clearly designed to challenge adventurers and not for any practical purpose. I love it! That is D&D to me. I know that to many people, these things I am calling strengths are what they consider its problems. To those people I say "get a life, its a game." The only black mark on the module is the lack of detail on the wizard rooms above and the efreets that intervene in the end. I wanted that stuff detailed out, which is saying alot for me since I normally love a little room for expansion. But in this case, it hurt the module.
8. Greyhawk Ruins. I know there are Greyhawk pursits who will kill me for this, since this module wasn’t written by Gygax, but it was amazing to finally have the ruins of Greyhawk detailed, particularly after the embarrassing garbage that was the Castle Greyhawk module. This module is gi-normous, far surpassing anything else in size and scope. Even the love-it-or-hate-it Undermountain doesn’t come close to this many rooms and this much detail.
9. The Desert of Desolation series (Pharoah, Oasis of the White Palm and the Lost Tomb of Martek). I didn’t want to put a series of modules as a winner, since Giants and Drow could so easily have made the top 10, but I thought that this series was so good and so tight that it needed to be included as a series.
10. The original Ravenloft. This module spawned a setting. It had amazing maps, a great NPC antagonist—perhaps one of the best villains of all time behind Acererak the demi-lich and Eclavdra from the G-D Series. You could arguably put the first few Dragonlance modules here, but no single one of them is better than Ravenloft and the series as a whole is weak except for the first few. So Ravenloft takes it.
I have to admit, I really wanted to put one of my own modules in the top 10, but the ones above are just better.
Runners Up:
These ones were really hard to leave out of the top 10.
11. Judges Guild’s Dark Tower. A total dungeon classic that embodies the coolness that is Judges Guild.
12. Village of Homlet. More Gygaxian flavor and a total classic campaign starter.
13. Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. A hugely overlooked module. The second module ever written (behind Wee Warriors’ Palace of the Vampire Queen) and its original form is one of the most collectable modules ever.
14. The Dragonlance series (the first few). The first ones were good. Great story. Interesting setting. Great NPCs and adventure locations. And more awesome maps like Ravenloft. Maybe some of the only Second Edition stuff that I can tolerate.
15. Necromancer Games’ Rappan Athuk series. I thought we hit a First Edition home run with these three modules. Tomb of Abysthor (which was inspired in part by the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and the Temple of the Frog) is a better individual module, but the RA series just rules. Plus I guess I just thought it was too cheesy to put one of my own adventures in the top 10.
[edit: though now that I see the LAME Forge of Fury in the list, I think maybe I should have. --Clark]
HONORABLE MENTION
1. Masks of Nyarlathotep for Call of Cthulhu. This is the best designed adventures of all times for any game system, period. It is that good. Certianly in scope and depth, this thing is unmatched. And on top of that it is for Call of Cthulhu, which may be one of the hardest games to design for both from a playability standpoint and from a literary one. It is nearly impossible to have a good extended CoC campaign because of the high rate of character death, but this thing pulls it off. Plus, the story is so Lovecraftian. You really feel the mythos. It is so true to the subject matter. If this were a D&D module it would be on the top of my list right there with Tomb of Horrors.
2. Gygax's Necropolis for Lejendary Adventures. This module just blew me away when I got the original. Necromancer Games redid it for d20, and I am tempted to put Necro’s conversion in the main list as a d20 module, but I don’t think that is right since it was just a conversion. Necropolis is a LA module, not a D&D module, despite the fact I think Necro’s conversion rules. This is right up there with Masks.
3. Twilight's Peak for Traveller. This is an amazing adventure. It took the dungeon concept and ported it to a future setting. With a great story, a great build up, and a challenging and significant conclusion that impacts any campaign that includes it. Very well done. And Traveller had some excellent “double adventures,” like Chamax Plague/Horde, Shadows/Annic Nova, and Argon Gambit/Death Station. Classic Traveller is one of the best game series that has ever been created in my opinion and deserves far more credit and recognition than it gets. If it were a D&D module it would easily be in my top 10.
Clark
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
Psion said:
Greyhawk purists are the main people with strong negative opinions about RttToEE? How about those of us who think it's a bizarre hodge-podge of a dungeon-crawl with little point to it? In fact most of the negative reviews on enworld complain more about the structure of the module than Greyhawk purism (although we do criticize how it doesn't even really make an attempt to fit into Greyhawk other than just by the names and trappings... which isn't really a question of holding true to any sort of Gygaxian vision, whatever that is, since GH has been so extensively modified by other authors as well as individual DMs running the campaign). Some of us just think it's a module that isn't as good as it should be coming from an experience designer in an age when hack-and-slash dungeon crawls are no longer innovative.
Anyway, I would quibble a little bit about some placements on the list (I'd rank Scourge of the Slavelords higher than 20 and put Ravenloft at #1), but that's all a matter of opinion.
What I find interesting are the comments given by the panel of judges, as printed by Paizo. Many of the reasons mentioned for holding a module in high regard seem to have less to do with the actual play of the module than in various meta-considerations, like how the G series introduced the Drow in a cool fashion, or the use of innovations like timelines and 3-D perspective mapping. I suppose we all tend to look at modules that we've read (in many cases many times) from a different perspective than the ones we've just played or run once and not picked up in many years. I suppose they contribute in some way to the module playing experience, but some of the comments had me thinking that the judges were looking at the modules from a module-writing perspective. I find that very interesting and wonder if non-designers would tend to come up with significantly different lists.
Psion
Adventurer
billd91 said:
I gotta say, I've not seen such complaints reach the same level of froth.
I can't comment as to why the editors selected the comments they did, but let me say this: my selections were based primarily on play experience. I could not find a more credible to narrow down so many adventures.
That said, some of my actual comment did deal with meta considerations. E.G., it's pretty hard to not recognize the drow modules as having started a generation of immitators.
Last edited:
Psion said:
My list was built on three main considerations:
1. Play experience: Did I play the adventure, and if so did I enjoy it? Do I still remember it after all these years?
2. History: Is this adventure a touchstone experience for D&D players?
3. Design consideration: Did the module do something new in an interesting, useful way?
I noticed that, in general, the best adventures are memorable. I can still remember playing through and running parts of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. I have a very clear memory of Siege of Kratys Freehold. I think I could draw the map to White Plume Mountain with my eyes closed. The first point brought out adventures that I loved, the second one filtered out ones that were good because of a specific DM or event in the game that wasn't related to the module, and the third one was the final consideration.
IME, modules are the most difficult things to rate without playing them. I don't usually pay attention to reviews or comments on them that aren't based on a playtest.
Waylander the Slayer
Explorer
The module i remember most was Castle Amber - the module had everything from a castle crawl to ending up in a whole new campaign setting (still remember the dwarven fighter saying "its only chickens" and getting turned into stone by the "chickens" or the boxing match with the homoculus)
Keeper of Secrets
First Post
Honestly I pretty much agreed with the article.
Sure there are some things I might not have had as high or moved around in other directions. I ma curious to see how many ravenous lunatics sends hate-mail to Dungeon, castigating them for why certain adventures we not on the list.
Sure there are some things I might not have had as high or moved around in other directions. I ma curious to see how many ravenous lunatics sends hate-mail to Dungeon, castigating them for why certain adventures we not on the list.
Orcus
First Post
I really agree with Mike.
Some of my factors are more measurable or knowable. Like design influence or historical impact. Some are more subjective. Playability is a huge factor for me. Some are totally not objective at all, such as memorability. What is memorable to me may not be memorable to you, or it may be memorable to you but not favorably.
So I think we all just have to agree that these choices are very subjective. We have good reasons for them, but they are subjective to a large degree.
What I tried to do is take my DM style out of it somewhat and focus on the adventure itself. Sure, I cant take out of my evaluation that I will viscerally like the modules that I like. It is real hard for me to vote for a module as top 10 if I've had a bad experience with it as a DM. I'm not sure you can flunk a module just because you didnt like it as a player. So I tried to broaden my view.
1. The play of the module. This is a huge criteria for me. Which is why I rate Frost Giant so highly. That thing plays great. Same with White Plume Mountain. Over and over time in and time out the module plays great. It can accept the party doing lots of different things and somehow always ends up in an epic experience. Though that could just mean the module fits more with my DM style. This is a key factor. If it doesnt play great, it can have the best maps ever and not be a top 10 module.
Some criticize Tomb of Horrors on this point and it is true that TODAY Tomb of Horrors doesnt always play so great, particularly now that eveyone knows about it. But back in the day, there was nothing like it. Running players for their first time through that dungeon is amazing. But that is very hard to replicate today since so many people know what it is about. Plus, it is for real experienced players. You cant get newbies and say "here are some 9th level pregens, lets go in this module I have." Well, you can but the result will be death and death pretty quickly. It wont be fun. But when run for a good group of experienced people, that module is pretty much the definitave high level challenge. AND you have a lot of players who hate Tomb because their characters died there. To that I say too bad. It is still an awesome module. People dont properly appreciate an epic death. And dying in the Tomb is a story you can tell forever. Which leads me to point 2...
2. Game History. This is important to me. How much of a defining part of what D&D is comes from this module? That is why, to me, Giants, Drow and Tomb of Horrors MUST be included. Same with Keep on the Borderlands (and some could argue In Search of the Unknown, but I thought that wasnt even a design, it was a map with some fill in the blank stuff, but I digress.) This is why I include "Palace of the Vampire Queen". You could easily (as Pramas did, and I agree with) also cite Temple of the Frog. They were the first. That alone is worth mention. This is objective if you know the history of D&D. Similarly, the "common experience" of D&D is a part of game history. Everyone has been in GDQ. Everyone has been in the Tomb of Horrors. And if you havent, you need to go do it now. That is like not having even one Stones or Beatles album. Like classic literature and classic rock, those adventures are a necessary part of the D&D cannon.
3. Design Influence. Did the module do something new and unique and did it influence other modules. Again, Tomb is unmatched here. It set the standard for what a "killer dungeon" is. Period. Ravenloft does the same. So do all three giants and drow modules--they created the "series" concept which is perhaps perfected in the Desert of Desolation series. This too is objective if you know the history of D&D. One could argue for Queen of the Demonweb Pits here, because planar adventuring was new and cool. But I thought that module was otherwise lame. It never played well (I played it many times). It isnt that significant, since you got to fight Lolth already in D3 (kind of). But from a design standpoint it is certainly fresh. So I dont mind it slipping in with the rest of the D series. And I think it is legitimate to take design issues into account. Not just because I am a designer. But because seminal modules shape the way future modules are done. Its the same with music.
4. Test of Time. I've been playing D&D for well over 20 years. I have run most of these modules bunches of times. So I am not basing my decision on "I ran it once and liked it." Similarly, there are some modules (some from Dungeon issues I dont have) that I have not run as much and maybe that hurt them. If the module didnt stand up to the test of time, I couldnt put it in the top 10. I will admit, I did not even consider a single module I never atleast played in. I wouldnt go on reputation alone. Which admittedly leaves out Raisia (since I have never owned it or played it). But I am hardcore and basically have everything ever (other than some rare stuff and some early Dungeon Mags where i let my subscription lapse and was out of D&D and playing other stuff).
5. Memorability. Call it excitement. Call it geek factor. I dont know. Some modules are just flat out more memorable and epic. Tomb. WPM. Maybe I am wrong, but if I dont get all geeky and smily about a module, I can't put it in the top 10. Sometimes it is the play of the module (like Frost Giant, a ratehr ordinary seeming module that always plays just great with epic battles), sometimes it is the "coolness" of the module--the artifacts in WPM, the drow in G3, the underdark in D1, the drow city in D3, the demilich in Tomb. etc. Some put Expediditon to the Barrier Peaks here. I just never liked that module. Maybe it was the cheesy vegepygmies.
So those are the things I looked at. I can't say that I picked things because I am a designer. These would be my choices if I never ever ran a d20 company. But being a designer gave me a deeper insight on a few of them. Like the difficulty of writing high level meatgrinders like Tomb. Man, that is hard to do. But that module is my #1 even without that insight. Or Masks of Nyrlathotep. That thing blew me away before I was a designer. And now that I am one, it is just all the more impressive.
I think Erik picked me because he knows I am passionate about adventures. I hope all of you are too. And by not including your favorite, I'm not saying you dont have the right to love it to death. Hey, you could like that stupid Castle Greyhawk with the Alice In Wonderland and all that other tongue in cheek junk. I hate it. It could be your number 1 and you could have bought 1000 copies of Tomb of Horrors and burned them. In the end, this list is no better than a list of top 100 albums. There are some there that I think deserve to be there, but I have never yet agreed with a top 100 list. Heck, I dont even like the results of Erik's survey--why, because it doesnt match my list
I love this discussion by the way
Clark
Some of my factors are more measurable or knowable. Like design influence or historical impact. Some are more subjective. Playability is a huge factor for me. Some are totally not objective at all, such as memorability. What is memorable to me may not be memorable to you, or it may be memorable to you but not favorably.
So I think we all just have to agree that these choices are very subjective. We have good reasons for them, but they are subjective to a large degree.
What I tried to do is take my DM style out of it somewhat and focus on the adventure itself. Sure, I cant take out of my evaluation that I will viscerally like the modules that I like. It is real hard for me to vote for a module as top 10 if I've had a bad experience with it as a DM. I'm not sure you can flunk a module just because you didnt like it as a player. So I tried to broaden my view.
1. The play of the module. This is a huge criteria for me. Which is why I rate Frost Giant so highly. That thing plays great. Same with White Plume Mountain. Over and over time in and time out the module plays great. It can accept the party doing lots of different things and somehow always ends up in an epic experience. Though that could just mean the module fits more with my DM style. This is a key factor. If it doesnt play great, it can have the best maps ever and not be a top 10 module.
Some criticize Tomb of Horrors on this point and it is true that TODAY Tomb of Horrors doesnt always play so great, particularly now that eveyone knows about it. But back in the day, there was nothing like it. Running players for their first time through that dungeon is amazing. But that is very hard to replicate today since so many people know what it is about. Plus, it is for real experienced players. You cant get newbies and say "here are some 9th level pregens, lets go in this module I have." Well, you can but the result will be death and death pretty quickly. It wont be fun. But when run for a good group of experienced people, that module is pretty much the definitave high level challenge. AND you have a lot of players who hate Tomb because their characters died there. To that I say too bad. It is still an awesome module. People dont properly appreciate an epic death. And dying in the Tomb is a story you can tell forever. Which leads me to point 2...
2. Game History. This is important to me. How much of a defining part of what D&D is comes from this module? That is why, to me, Giants, Drow and Tomb of Horrors MUST be included. Same with Keep on the Borderlands (and some could argue In Search of the Unknown, but I thought that wasnt even a design, it was a map with some fill in the blank stuff, but I digress.) This is why I include "Palace of the Vampire Queen". You could easily (as Pramas did, and I agree with) also cite Temple of the Frog. They were the first. That alone is worth mention. This is objective if you know the history of D&D. Similarly, the "common experience" of D&D is a part of game history. Everyone has been in GDQ. Everyone has been in the Tomb of Horrors. And if you havent, you need to go do it now. That is like not having even one Stones or Beatles album. Like classic literature and classic rock, those adventures are a necessary part of the D&D cannon.
3. Design Influence. Did the module do something new and unique and did it influence other modules. Again, Tomb is unmatched here. It set the standard for what a "killer dungeon" is. Period. Ravenloft does the same. So do all three giants and drow modules--they created the "series" concept which is perhaps perfected in the Desert of Desolation series. This too is objective if you know the history of D&D. One could argue for Queen of the Demonweb Pits here, because planar adventuring was new and cool. But I thought that module was otherwise lame. It never played well (I played it many times). It isnt that significant, since you got to fight Lolth already in D3 (kind of). But from a design standpoint it is certainly fresh. So I dont mind it slipping in with the rest of the D series. And I think it is legitimate to take design issues into account. Not just because I am a designer. But because seminal modules shape the way future modules are done. Its the same with music.
4. Test of Time. I've been playing D&D for well over 20 years. I have run most of these modules bunches of times. So I am not basing my decision on "I ran it once and liked it." Similarly, there are some modules (some from Dungeon issues I dont have) that I have not run as much and maybe that hurt them. If the module didnt stand up to the test of time, I couldnt put it in the top 10. I will admit, I did not even consider a single module I never atleast played in. I wouldnt go on reputation alone. Which admittedly leaves out Raisia (since I have never owned it or played it). But I am hardcore and basically have everything ever (other than some rare stuff and some early Dungeon Mags where i let my subscription lapse and was out of D&D and playing other stuff).
5. Memorability. Call it excitement. Call it geek factor. I dont know. Some modules are just flat out more memorable and epic. Tomb. WPM. Maybe I am wrong, but if I dont get all geeky and smily about a module, I can't put it in the top 10. Sometimes it is the play of the module (like Frost Giant, a ratehr ordinary seeming module that always plays just great with epic battles), sometimes it is the "coolness" of the module--the artifacts in WPM, the drow in G3, the underdark in D1, the drow city in D3, the demilich in Tomb. etc. Some put Expediditon to the Barrier Peaks here. I just never liked that module. Maybe it was the cheesy vegepygmies.
So those are the things I looked at. I can't say that I picked things because I am a designer. These would be my choices if I never ever ran a d20 company. But being a designer gave me a deeper insight on a few of them. Like the difficulty of writing high level meatgrinders like Tomb. Man, that is hard to do. But that module is my #1 even without that insight. Or Masks of Nyrlathotep. That thing blew me away before I was a designer. And now that I am one, it is just all the more impressive.
I think Erik picked me because he knows I am passionate about adventures. I hope all of you are too. And by not including your favorite, I'm not saying you dont have the right to love it to death. Hey, you could like that stupid Castle Greyhawk with the Alice In Wonderland and all that other tongue in cheek junk. I hate it. It could be your number 1 and you could have bought 1000 copies of Tomb of Horrors and burned them. In the end, this list is no better than a list of top 100 albums. There are some there that I think deserve to be there, but I have never yet agreed with a top 100 list. Heck, I dont even like the results of Erik's survey--why, because it doesnt match my list
I love this discussion by the way
Clark
Thank you for posting your list of criteria. Personally, I wouldn't have included the two I quote here. In my opinion, "best" does not mean "most historically significant." It means "the most fun to run/play." But then again, you got selected as a jury member, and I didn't, so...Orcus said:
Similar Threads
