Dungeon World
Manbearcat
Legend
@Retreater
Thanks for posting that. I’m going to respond only to the UaPJ for now to keep he conversation focused. We can move to the Parley and Combat once the UaPJ thoughts are resolved.
My thoughts are two-fold:
1) Regarding Rations. You mentioned “over-preparing” (presumably meaning they bought and stored much more than they need).
a) All aspects of equipment are meant to be enduring “pressure-points” on play. Encumbrance/Load is one way this is handled. That gets mitigated s bit with two high Str characters, but make sure that is handled appropriately (DW makes this low overhead, so that shouldn’t be trouble like other games).
b) Beyond Load, there is only so much space to put stuff in packs. So both you and your players have a say in this. Your say is “guys, it’s a backpack...a full days allotment of rations is probably 3/4 a lunchbox for full grown, beefy warriors like you. This isn’t modern day where you’re packing huge calories and nutrient density into small meal bars”. You just can’t carry that many rations in your packs! Their say is “we’re going to sacrifice some space for torches/adventuring gear/poultices/etc for an extra days rations”. To which you say “fair enough”...knowing now you have a more vulnerable pressure point to attack on 7-9 and 6-.
2) If these guys are inherently combat-centric in their builds/load-outs, then consider making obstacles/dangers (for UaPJ and others) be different. Consider non-combat Dangers for UaPJ as the bulk of results. Perhaps a Scout 7-9 yields:
* A Discovery. Some new, shiny, interesting locale with a promise of treasure on a short window of opportunity (maybe the moon is right once a year to separate the waters of a deep lake and reveal something...or a portal appears suddenly and shimmers as if it’s bout to blink out) which creates an interesting decision-point. Alternatively, maybe the scout stumbles upon an lamed Bear/Wolf/Leopard who may turn into a Cohort if they can get it out of its trap and heal it..and survive the violence that it fights with due to its fear and injury.
* A non-combat Danger that they have to immediately act upon lest it manifest against them:
- An aberrant altar erected by a cult of some Far Realm horror. Laying eyes upon its writings and portents twists the mind and turns you against your nature!
- A surveying team for a mineral site or a new trail to connect streadings is in dire peril as a mudslide has buried half their team...most of their gear...the night is gathering and predators loom. The problem is, the site is completely unstable due to all of the rains...a slide of this area to the valley below is imminent given grumbling of the mountain/hill!
- A very young, Demon-Possessed (or feral?) girl has left a trail of rats that she has been feasting upon as she is starving to death...Seeing the meaty Barbarian she stalks him and jumps upon him from an overhanging branch!
- A horrific hailstorm has emerged out of nowhere! They better find shelter or the softball sized hail (and maybe a tornado?) will damage their armor/ruin their packs(upon which time they’ll have to decide which gear to leave behind)/injure them (or worse).
Thanks for posting that. I’m going to respond only to the UaPJ for now to keep he conversation focused. We can move to the Parley and Combat once the UaPJ thoughts are resolved.
My thoughts are two-fold:
1) Regarding Rations. You mentioned “over-preparing” (presumably meaning they bought and stored much more than they need).
a) All aspects of equipment are meant to be enduring “pressure-points” on play. Encumbrance/Load is one way this is handled. That gets mitigated s bit with two high Str characters, but make sure that is handled appropriately (DW makes this low overhead, so that shouldn’t be trouble like other games).
b) Beyond Load, there is only so much space to put stuff in packs. So both you and your players have a say in this. Your say is “guys, it’s a backpack...a full days allotment of rations is probably 3/4 a lunchbox for full grown, beefy warriors like you. This isn’t modern day where you’re packing huge calories and nutrient density into small meal bars”. You just can’t carry that many rations in your packs! Their say is “we’re going to sacrifice some space for torches/adventuring gear/poultices/etc for an extra days rations”. To which you say “fair enough”...knowing now you have a more vulnerable pressure point to attack on 7-9 and 6-.
2) If these guys are inherently combat-centric in their builds/load-outs, then consider making obstacles/dangers (for UaPJ and others) be different. Consider non-combat Dangers for UaPJ as the bulk of results. Perhaps a Scout 7-9 yields:
* A Discovery. Some new, shiny, interesting locale with a promise of treasure on a short window of opportunity (maybe the moon is right once a year to separate the waters of a deep lake and reveal something...or a portal appears suddenly and shimmers as if it’s bout to blink out) which creates an interesting decision-point. Alternatively, maybe the scout stumbles upon an lamed Bear/Wolf/Leopard who may turn into a Cohort if they can get it out of its trap and heal it..and survive the violence that it fights with due to its fear and injury.
* A non-combat Danger that they have to immediately act upon lest it manifest against them:
- An aberrant altar erected by a cult of some Far Realm horror. Laying eyes upon its writings and portents twists the mind and turns you against your nature!
- A surveying team for a mineral site or a new trail to connect streadings is in dire peril as a mudslide has buried half their team...most of their gear...the night is gathering and predators loom. The problem is, the site is completely unstable due to all of the rains...a slide of this area to the valley below is imminent given grumbling of the mountain/hill!
- A very young, Demon-Possessed (or feral?) girl has left a trail of rats that she has been feasting upon as she is starving to death...Seeing the meaty Barbarian she stalks him and jumps upon him from an overhanging branch!
- A horrific hailstorm has emerged out of nowhere! They better find shelter or the softball sized hail (and maybe a tornado?) will damage their armor/ruin their packs(upon which time they’ll have to decide which gear to leave behind)/injure them (or worse).
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Manbearcat
Legend
@Nebulous
PBtA games are extremely low prep. The game will fight you (and won’t reward you) if you prep much.
You and your players need to be understanding and open with each other if this gaming paradigm is entirely new to you. Take a breath. Lean on each other. Be relaxed and conversational. Ask questions. Use the answers.
You’ll learn it and get better with thinking on your feet and navigating genre logic impromptu together. And the game’s engine and advice will help you.
I would recommend Vincent Baker’s GMing advice in Apocalypse World and Dogs in the Vineyard to also help you along (as they’re both enormously helpful and apropos). Same goes for Johnathon Harper with Blades in the Dark.
Another great resource is the advice in Strike! But you really don’t need all of those. DW GMing advice is fantastic and comprehensive while being concise and focused.
Since I’m plugging things, I’ll plug “The Perilous Wilds” as a DW supplement. I use it’s UaPJ and Companion/Cohort rules (and a few other moves).
PBtA games are extremely low prep. The game will fight you (and won’t reward you) if you prep much.
You and your players need to be understanding and open with each other if this gaming paradigm is entirely new to you. Take a breath. Lean on each other. Be relaxed and conversational. Ask questions. Use the answers.
You’ll learn it and get better with thinking on your feet and navigating genre logic impromptu together. And the game’s engine and advice will help you.
I would recommend Vincent Baker’s GMing advice in Apocalypse World and Dogs in the Vineyard to also help you along (as they’re both enormously helpful and apropos). Same goes for Johnathon Harper with Blades in the Dark.
Another great resource is the advice in Strike! But you really don’t need all of those. DW GMing advice is fantastic and comprehensive while being concise and focused.
Since I’m plugging things, I’ll plug “The Perilous Wilds” as a DW supplement. I use it’s UaPJ and Companion/Cohort rules (and a few other moves).
JeffB
Legend
Servants
Go download "One shot World" from Drive Thru- It's great for one-shots or several sessions.
It has almost no -prep. And includes all you need to do that "almost no prep". Also there are dozens and dozens of Dungeon Starter type products out there for free (And Cinder Queen is a must buy, IMO)
BTW- This is an invaluable resource for DW if anyone here does not know about it.
Dungeon World Syllabus
Go download "One shot World" from Drive Thru- It's great for one-shots or several sessions.
It has almost no -prep. And includes all you need to do that "almost no prep". Also there are dozens and dozens of Dungeon Starter type products out there for free (And Cinder Queen is a must buy, IMO)
BTW- This is an invaluable resource for DW if anyone here does not know about it.
Dungeon World Syllabus
I've never actually played DW (unfortunately), but I have listened to a few podcasts that use powered by the apocalypse games, so I guess I'll throw my 2 cents.
afaik the Powered by the Apocalypse games have become popular with actual-play podcasts, and I feel like that's because it's good at creating drama (like drama drama, not interpersonal drama). every time characters go into battle they always come out worse for wear and that's 'cause they get injured. sure they lose HP, but more importantly they explain in detail why and how they hurt. people will also play these games and run campaigns where they rarely go into combat, instead focusing on things like exploration and intrigue, in which case combat becomes much more deadly since it usually represents some major issue coming to a head. at least that's the impression I've gotten. dismemberment is the extreme end of things, but it's probably better to think of injuries instead of HP.
maybe I'm wrong, but I felt like part of the appeal of older D&D was that it was fraught with peril. all the games made with this system are supposed to be some form of deadly and DW is very much inspired by games like this, hirelings and 10 foot poles included. if you guys play OSR I'd think they'd understand that the game is supposed to be kinda scary and not about steamrolling through dungeons, idk.
since I'm the only person I know who wants to play Dungeon World, I've had this issue too since I'd probably end up the one to run it. I came to the realization that GM moves are basically the smiling dungeon master meme in less abstract form. basically you can do whatevernasty cool thing you can think of to the players, and you don't even have to pretend to roll for anything! I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like that's what they were going for when they wrote the rules for moves.
afaik the Powered by the Apocalypse games have become popular with actual-play podcasts, and I feel like that's because it's good at creating drama (like drama drama, not interpersonal drama). every time characters go into battle they always come out worse for wear and that's 'cause they get injured. sure they lose HP, but more importantly they explain in detail why and how they hurt. people will also play these games and run campaigns where they rarely go into combat, instead focusing on things like exploration and intrigue, in which case combat becomes much more deadly since it usually represents some major issue coming to a head. at least that's the impression I've gotten. dismemberment is the extreme end of things, but it's probably better to think of injuries instead of HP.
maybe I'm wrong, but I felt like part of the appeal of older D&D was that it was fraught with peril. all the games made with this system are supposed to be some form of deadly and DW is very much inspired by games like this, hirelings and 10 foot poles included. if you guys play OSR I'd think they'd understand that the game is supposed to be kinda scary and not about steamrolling through dungeons, idk.
since I'm the only person I know who wants to play Dungeon World, I've had this issue too since I'd probably end up the one to run it. I came to the realization that GM moves are basically the smiling dungeon master meme in less abstract form. basically you can do whatever
Nebulous
Legend
Wow, that's a cool little supplement! I hope I can get my old group to try this out on roll20. They're excited about doing 5e Forge of Fury but I'm not very thrilled.
@Panda-s1 my players are kinda bored with it. The OSR fan thinks it's too easy, the 5e player thinks there aren't enough options, but the PF player likes the ease of play because he doesn't want to make any extra time investment in this game.
I've been re-reading the rulebook today. I'm fairly convinced I'm running it closely to RAW, but there's obviously something missing (as many in this thread are pointing out).
Perhaps I'm not cut out for extreme GM Fiat games like FATE, DW, etc.
I've been re-reading the rulebook today. I'm fairly convinced I'm running it closely to RAW, but there's obviously something missing (as many in this thread are pointing out).
Perhaps I'm not cut out for extreme GM Fiat games like FATE, DW, etc.
@Retreater - I don't think I would describe DW as "extreme GM fiat", because the principles are pretty focused. But I agree with you that choosing your moves may be what's causing trouble. I haven't yet GMed a PbtA game - I'm hoping to do Apocalypse World some time in this lifetime! - but I have found establishing consequences for failure in Burning Wheel to pose some similar challenges. (Also, but to a lesser extent, establishing failures in skill challenges when GMing 4e.)
I think at least part of the solution is to have a very clear sense of the fiction and its trajectory, and to have player buy-in to that - which tends to mean a high degree of at-the-table collaboration in establishing the fiction. One system that has helped me with this particular GM skill, and is very easy to play and excellent for one-shots, is Cthuhlu Dark.
I think at least part of the solution is to have a very clear sense of the fiction and its trajectory, and to have player buy-in to that - which tends to mean a high degree of at-the-table collaboration in establishing the fiction. One system that has helped me with this particular GM skill, and is very easy to play and excellent for one-shots, is Cthuhlu Dark.
Manbearcat
Legend
@Retreater
You’re definitely missing something because most OSR games (outside Moldvay Basic) and 5e have at their beating hearts GM Fiat; “rulings not rules.”
Powered By the Apocalypse games, DW in this case are not even in the slightest “rulings not rules”; it’s antithetucal in fact (and the game says so). These games are profoundly player facing with extreme, player-facing codification, shared authority, and GMing that is tightly constrained by (a) all of the above mentioned and (b) by the explicit play agenda and binding GM principles (which should be what is guiding your every move made).
Why do you think DW is GM Fiat while something like 2e and 5e (which are all GM Fiat driven and vulnerable to Force in the extreme) are not?
I think once that is answered we may get a better understanding of what is happening in your game.
You’re definitely missing something because most OSR games (outside Moldvay Basic) and 5e have at their beating hearts GM Fiat; “rulings not rules.”
Powered By the Apocalypse games, DW in this case are not even in the slightest “rulings not rules”; it’s antithetucal in fact (and the game says so). These games are profoundly player facing with extreme, player-facing codification, shared authority, and GMing that is tightly constrained by (a) all of the above mentioned and (b) by the explicit play agenda and binding GM principles (which should be what is guiding your every move made).
Why do you think DW is GM Fiat while something like 2e and 5e (which are all GM Fiat driven and vulnerable to Force in the extreme) are not?
I think once that is answered we may get a better understanding of what is happening in your game.
