WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Sadras]

Yes, it's the same with the Samurai and Ninja in Paizo's books.

Although some may view it as not hitting the same issues, the fact that it separates culture so distinctly from the class and name, for some, speaks of whitewashing. It separates that culture and significance of the titles and words from what they mean and their origins.

Not all would share this view, and not all share this view. However, whitewashing in that regards is actually worse than what OA did in using it's title.

You can see people being offended on both sides of this argument. There is no winning.

Speaking about not separating culture from class and name - if I wanted to create a human Samurai PC, the image of the character I'd be evisioning would be that of an Asian, and I would scour the net looking for an image along those lines. Tom Cruise is not the image for me that comes to mind when someone says they're playing a human Samurai character. Even non-human characters would exhibit an Asian look.

 

[The Glen]

I don't believe I'm aware of this - what do you mean the settings got completely rewritten? Which settings in particular?

TSR during its 2nd edition days decided to move forward the meta plot for almost all of its settings. It usually did this buy some sort of catastrophe radically changed the setting. Forgotten Realms had the time of troubles which got rid of multiple popular gods as well as the assassin class. Greyhawk had the Greyhawk Wars which reshaped the map. Ravenloft had the great conjunction which rearranged their map and actually got rid of several things they didn't want in ravenloft anymore. Mystara did Wrath of the Immortals which destroyed two of their Nations and and also killed off the entire Cold War vibe which defined the setting. I believe Dragon Lance had a similar thing happened but I don't remember off the top of my head.

A lot of these changes were poorly received because it completely change What attracted people to the settings in the first place. If you Veer too far off the initial story you lose people that were attracted to that story in the first place

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

TSR during its 2nd edition days decided to move forward the meta plot for almost all of its settings.

...

A lot of these changes were poorly received because it completely change What attracted people to the settings in the first place. If you Veer too far off the initial story you lose people that were attracted to that story in the first place

I would say that the biggest problem is the idea of a meta plot. Once they went from the original conception (in GH with the Folio and '83 Boxed Set, and FR with the Grey Box) that a setting was released with ideas and hooks for the table to fill in, and instead needed an advancing "meta plot," that's when I lost interest in the official campaigns.

To its credit, it looks like they've gone back to the original model in 5e.

 

[Danzauker]

I believe Dragon Lance had a similar thing happened but I don't remember off the top of my head.

Was it something like the second cataclysm that led to the Age of mortals? Or that came later?

A lot of these changes were poorly received because it completely change What attracted people to the settings in the first place. If you Veer too far off the initial story you lose people that were attracted to that story in the first place

Yes, the "end of the world" is often used as a last resort card to traw attention to a product or line that's slowly dying in order to see if it can be saved (and, let's admit, when fresh ideas start to finish). Rarely works, though. I remember something similar was done with Planescape with Faction War.

 

[Sadras]

TSR during its 2nd edition days decided to move forward the meta plot for almost all of its settings. It usually did this buy some sort of catastrophe radically changed the setting. Forgotten Realms had the time of troubles which got rid of multiple popular gods as well as the assassin class. Greyhawk had the Greyhawk Wars which reshaped the map. Ravenloft had the great conjunction which rearranged their map and actually got rid of several things they didn't want in ravenloft anymore. Mystara did Wrath of the Immortals which destroyed two of their Nations and and also killed off the entire Cold War vibe which defined the setting. I believe Dragon Lance had a similar thing happened but I don't remember off the top of my head.

A lot of these changes were poorly received because it completely change What attracted people to the settings in the first place. If you Veer too far off the initial story you lose people that were attracted to that story in the first place

Ah ok thanks. I misunderstood, thought you meant something different.

 

[ART!]

Unfortunately, our brains and language cannot operate without them. Our brains cannot physically deal with only specifics for every object we encounter. We do not have the processing power for that. So we have to make generalizations. "Apple". "Hedgehog". "Car". All stereotypes. That all stereotyeps are bad is itself... an inaccurate stereotype.

So, no, not all stereotypes are bad, nor is all use of stereotypes bad. "I like Cajun food," is a perfectly acceptable thing to say.

It is where stereotype intersects with people that we run into problems, and those generalizations tend to fail us, because people, being dynamic, often defy those generalizations in ways that apples don't - so using them with respect to people often leads to inaccurate judgements and results that are harmful.

I've never heard any serious conversation about the useful generalizations that humans make in order to process information that refers to that process as making use of stereotypes. As laid out earlier, stereotypes are by definition bad things. This is not debatable.

In scientific contexts discussing how human brain arrange and categorize information and stimuli, what you're talking about is referred to as "generalization".

I think it's important to underscore that this is not an issue of semantics. Stereotypes are bad. Generalization is a necessary function of brains.

I'm not scientist enough to know if this makes sense - maybe it's a difference of kind rather than degree - but it seems like we can lack self-awareness or be lazy and over-use generalization, resulting in stereotypes.

 

[Sadras]

As laid out earlier, stereotypes are by definition bad things. This is not debatable.

Are classes stereotypes?

 

[Bagpuss]

Are classes stereotypes?

Basic D&D ones definitely. But are they actually archetypes? Hmm

 

[Voadam]

Ummm... there are multiple links in Dire Bear’s initial link, including to tweets by Kwan himself where he posts examples. I found this all in less than 30 seconds. Basic detective work here.

Here is the twitter thread linked in the article:
The most specific thing he says there is "Books like this take my culture, oversimplify the nuances that make it beautiful, mash it together with other cultural reductions, and present it as THE WAY others should view our stories."

He also asserts "When you buy this, you show them that you are ok with Asian people being represented by blatant stereotypes."

Otherwise it is just stating things are problematic and he asserts nobody should consume OA and Kara Tur as products.

"You show consumers that these legacy products are to be consumed. They aren't."

"Kara-Tur is still being sold and this is a PROBLEM."

"these dated, and frankly racist, products. "

"You think making a racist product even more accessible is better than removing it?"

 

[Fenris-77]

Perhaps try explaining how classes are or might be stereotypes, rather than just stating that they are. Just asking the question and expecting someone else to do the heavy lifting is lazy, or possibly rhetorically shady if the point is to set up a future reply. I'll even get you started, here's a common definition of stereotype:

1. a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.