WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Haldrik]

Which is exactly why it is racist. For non-Europeans the Mediterranean is not, and never was, considered the centre of the world.

Yeah, I find the map of Tibet beautiful, as a "lotus" with India being a southern "petal", and so on, and Tibet in the center.

 

[reelo]

Europe itself is an arbitrary division; there's no physical reason to split the continents there, and it's basically a dividing line between Greece and Turkey blown up. That division is purely a European division of the world.

The Dardanelles (Hellespont) is a natural boundary between Europe and Asia, as are the Black Sea, and the Caucasus and Ural mountain ranges. The fact that modern-day Turkey possesses a bit of land on the "European" side of the Hellespont does not change this.

 

[Haldrik]

The Dardanelles (Hellespont) is a natural boundary between Europe and Asia, as are the Black Sea, and the Caucasus and Ural mountain ranges. The fact that modern-day Turkey possesses a bit of land on the "European" side of the Hellespont does not change this.

Geographically, it makes more sense to talk about the continent of Eurasia.

But culturally, the division between Europe and Asia is convenient enough.

By the way, that is a great stylized map to understand the main geographical overview of Europe.

 

[Haldrik]

Heh, I notice the map culturally genocides the aborigines of Judea Samaria.

Almost nothing is culturally neutral.

Inclusivity is the best goal possible. At least get multiple perspectives.

For D&D, having at least three "factions" per race or region helps convey that there are different cultures with different ideologies.

 

[Umbran]

The possible stereotypes in OA may unintentionally offend Asians, but to say it is racism it's a serious accusation beyond ordinary limits.

That depends on what you call, "racism." Was it a willfully demeaning act? Probably not. But that's not the only form of racism out there. As noted before (or maybe in a different one of these threads), willful racism is like going out at 3 AM to stomp on your neighbor's petunias. But there's other racism that's more like going out to walk your basset hound, and being too concerned with tweets to realize that your dog is relieving itself all over the petunias and killing them. That fact that you didn't mean it doesn't mean the petunias don't die, or that you aren't responsible.

Does it mix different Asian cultures? Maybe, but that is not a crime...

I hope you don't mean that literally. No, it is not literally against the law, but that's an incredibly low bar of treatment for your fellow humans. I mean, there's no law that says you can't go out to a party, get drunk, and vomit on people, but most folks agree that's still not something you should do. Right?

 

[Bedrockgames]

I hope you don't mean that literally. No, it is not literally against the law, but that's an incredibly low bar of treatment for your fellow humans. I mean, there's no law that says you can't go out to a party, get drunk, and vomit on people, but most folks agree that's still not something you should do. Right?

This seems like a very shaky comparison to me. People disagree on pastiche settings but sense is the majority of gamers (and probably the majority of media consumers if we are talking entertainment in general), see nothing wrong with a pastiche setting that mixes culture. Arguments against mixing cultures have become less niche over the years, but I really do think it is an uphill argument to say pastiche settings that mix cultural details are immoral or even bad quality (a history or anthropology book that does that might be bad quality, but not a game or fantasy setting). At the very least good arguments can be made for why pastiche cultural mixing is okay. Whereas very few people would advocate that it’s fine to vomit on people at a party (and the moral badness and negative consequences of that act are a lot more clear than mixing cultural tropes)

 

[Mirtek]

One.

Then you can do nothing at all ever again. With 7 billion people, there is at least 1 that finds offense with everything you could possibly do

 

[Remathilis]

This seems like a very shaky comparison to me. People disagree on pastiche settings but sense is the majority of gamers (and probably the majority of media consumers if we are talking entertainment in general), see nothing wrong with a pastiche setting that mixes culture. Arguments against mixing cultures have become less niche over the years, but I really do think it is an uphill argument to say pastiche settings that mix cultural details are immoral or even bad quality (a history or anthropology book that does that might be bad quality, but not a game or fantasy setting). At the very least good arguments can be made for why pastiche cultural mixing is okay. Whereas very few people would advocate that it’s fine to vomit on people at a party (and the moral badness and negative consequences of that act are a lot more clear than mixing cultural tropes)

RIP druid, bard, paladin and monk...

 

[Maggan]

Lest we forget, I want to draw attention to the fact that the mere existence of RPGs is offensive to some people. Material I have written has been blamed for a murder (Mutant Chronicles first edition), and there was a drive in Sweden to outlaw RPGs because of that and because of Kult, because they offended some people.

So setting the bar at "if even one is offended we should do something" seems unpractical to me. Someone will be offended just by the existence of D&D and other RPGs.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

Whereas I find some fault in some of the criticisms leveled against OA by Kwan, I also remember that the last legal vestiges of the Chinese Exclusion Act only were repealed in the mid 1960’s.

The fact that he got a few points wrong does not mean that all the other points are wrong as well. I disagree with his conclusion in terms of what the action needs to be, but not that some recognition of the issue should be made.

The real issue with the mingling and stereotypes of the cultures was that real cultures/countries were called out in the beginning of the book. If they had removed that and the title, and just made it a source book for a region, the offense would probably have been much less. Otherwise that is what pretty much every source book for an RPG does. Gives a broad description of something and then lets the DM fill in the rest.