WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Sacrosanct

Legend
Hasbro owns GI Joe. If you think Asians are not well depicted in OA, you need to pay more attention to how they were depicted in other older Hasbro products.

Hasbro didn't own D&D when OA came out, so they had nothing to do with it. WoTC didn't even own D&D then.

But to your point, and one I mentioned a while ago, is that when you look at OA in context of how Asians were portrayed in literally every other game or pop culture media, it seems very progressive and non offensive by comparison.

I'm not saying it's not offensive, or that it wasn't wrong, or that people might not have been upset, I'm only saying in comparison to how Asians were portrayed in the mid 80s in general. I think we forget just how badly stereotypes were back then without anyone (general society) batting an eye. Many movies I loved in the 80s are difficult to watch now. Like 16 candles. Kung Fu. Revenge of the Nerds. Etc. It's embarrassing.
 

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MGibster

Legend
So, you can't be offended by something unless you do the research to make sure you are right to be offended first.

You've got a right to be offended by anything, but you might look foolish when you open your mouth to complain and found out the basis for your offense isn't true. I'm thinking of John Wiley Price, Dallas City Council, who took great offense when another councilmen referred to his office as a "black hole" that sucked in paperwork but never released it. Price was incensed, castigated his fellow councilman for such a racist statement, asked him if he'd ever refer to someone's office as a "white hole," and demanded an apology. The councilman apologized for Price's ignorance about a scientific term.

Not all offenses are equal nor are all complaints.
 

But our organization is trying to have the product pulled by boycotting it. If we are successful, we are taking that decision away from other people. They can't decide to buy it if we successfully get it pulled from the shelves.

I do think free speech absolutism is most persuasively criticized on freedom of association grounds. That is, we also have to respect direct action rooted in freedom of association such as boycotts, strikes, etc., even when the object of the direct action is suppressing "undesirable" speech.

The superficial problem, of course, is that almost everyone is hypocritical about it: When left-of-center folks are boycotting Goya Foods because the CEO supports the current U.S. president, that's fine: It's not really suppressing free speech, it's simply a matter of imposing "accountability" or "consequences" for the exercise of free speech. But then the same people will argue that Collin Kaepernick has been unjustly silenced when he lost his career (at least for a few years). In this case, it's not about "consequences for the exercise of free speech," it's something unjust, something sinister.

The deeper problem is that the success of direct action at suppressing speech, especially in the case of things like culture-war boycotts, tends to hinge on which group wields the most power in any particular cultural institution. The left tends to wield the most power in institutions such as pop culture and academia, so the speech that gets suppressed is whatever speech the "woke left" deems undesirable. A few dozen oligarchs hold most of the power in the NFL, so the speech that is suppressed is whatever those oligarchs deem undesirable.

I think it can be really harmful to those cultural institutions. It's only tangentially related to TTRPGs, and I don't want to open up another can of worms, but I think the YA community is devouring itself. You've got a Black, queer author who has worked for major publishers as a sensitivity reader joining the dogpile of a Chinese immigrant debut author who ultimately cancels her own book, only to have his own debut get cancelled due to charges of Islamophobia. On the one hand, it's a good thing that the more diverse community is wresting some power from almost exclusively white, cis, het traditional publishing gatekeepers. OTOH, the way that power is being wielded seems cannibalistic and self-destructive.

I think this is a danger in the TTRPG community. Just as we've always had people whose primary participation in the hobby is theorycrafting, I believe we're starting to see people--a very vocal group--whose primary participation is "critical theorycrafting." If that's your thing (not to be dismissive: if that is your cause), there is going to be an incentive to keep digging into everything published until you uncover all the problematic elements, disseminate your work as widely as possible and get all those tasty "likes" that are the social/status currency of your community. And just as with regular theorycrafting, if you're good enough at it, you can have a successful YouTube channel or Patreon and make some real money. You just have to know your audience and always keep giving them what they want. And man, if you can get offending works cancelled or pulled, if you can get offenders fired from their jobs and run out of their careers, that's the big prize.

Yes, people will say, "That's all just premised on a slippery slope fallacy!" But I think it's actually a vicious cycle rooted in underlying incentive structures and that vicious cycle inevitably leads to excesses, such as professionals being fired for posting peer-reviewed studies, people getting forced out of their career for liking the wrong Tweet, or Black, queer writers being cancelled because, no matter how sensitive you are, no matter how much you've participated in the cultural policing of the community yourself, you can never be sensitive enough about everything.
 

With WotC's recent statement on making the game more inclusive in regards to racial issues, I should have predicted this would happen next.

Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

The 1st Edition "Oriental Adventures" is probably one of the worst titles in the back catalog for its treatment of race and culture, but it is far from the only problematic title. Should WotC remove the 1E "Oriental Adventures" rulebook from the DriveThruRPG.com marketplace? How about the 3E version? Other products that built on Oriental Adventures? What other titles?

Personally, I don't feel that the book should be removed entirely, but something does need to be done to acknowledge the problematic aspects of the title. I'd take a page from the HBO Max streaming service. HBO Max temporarily removed the movie "Gone with the Wind" recently due to the world's current focus on racial issues. However, they have restored the film to the catalog with an introductory disclaimer basically saying the film is important in a historical context but, yeah, pretty racist.

I would like to see WotC do something similar with "Oriental Adventures" and other problematic titles. Add a disclaimer at the beginning of the digital book explaining explicitly the problematic elements of the book. I would also have all profits from the book's sales go to a charity, preferably some charity dealing with Asian American racial issues.

What do you think?
It's a tough call. Frankly I never thought of the word 'oriental' as a deeply racist term, nor is it clear that it is being used here to refer to people vs geography. That being said, I'm not who it's directed at. Someone is offended, so unless we belittle them by denying their opinion any weight then it needs to be taken seriously.
IMHO a disclaimer is sufficient, but again I am not the one who is offended...
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Isn't there a difference between explaining that a particular work offends you and you will not consume it (and suggest others also refrain), and demanding that the company which owns that work stop making it available at all? The former expresses your personal opinion, and the latter seems to insist your opinion become the law of the land, so to speak.
 


JEB

Legend
There's now an article on this at the Huffington Post. Kwan (now) supports a nuanced approach:
In response to people calling him a “book burner,” Kwan argued that, ideally, Wizards of the Coast should demonetize all problematic legacy titles and place them in an online archive similar to a museum, where interested people can access them alongside “a public disclaimer, apology and annotations.”

Interesting, considering he initially balked at the idea of making them freely available.

On the other hand, Kwan also had this to say about the original work:
“Oriental Adventures” — the original version of which was written by three white men — often depicted Asians as “violent and savage, uncivilized and in need of foreign saviors and as objects of fetishization,” Kwan added.

OA has many issues, but I don't recall Asians being depicted as "violent and savage" or "uncivilized" or "in need of foreign saviors" among them.
 

MGibster

Legend
Interesting, considering he initially balked at the idea of making them freely available.

Sometimes people change their mind. I've been known to do it a time or two.

OA has many issues, but I don't recall Asians being depicted as "violent and savage" or "uncivilized" or "in need of foreign saviors" among them.

At least no more savage, violent, or uncivilized as any other set of D&D characters.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
There's now an article on this at the Huffington Post.

Thanks for the article link, it's a good one and I appreciate the interview with Kwan.

Interesting, considering he initially balked at the idea of making them freely available.

Perhaps it's just your wording, or how I'm interpreting it, but you seem to mean this as a criticism. Is Kwan not allowed to change his opinion on how best to deal with Oriental Adventures? And really, his position hasn't changed much . . . his main concern seemed to be WotC continuing to make money off of the problematic title. He seems okay with the actions WotC has taken so far (adding the disclaimer), even if he would have done differently and is waiting for them to follow up their words with concrete action on future titles.

OA has many issues, but I don't recall Asians being depicted as "violent and savage" or "uncivilized" or "in need of foreign saviors" among them.

Read it more carefully. While reading, try to put yourself in the shoes of an Asian American, rather than from a position of white privilege (assuming you are white, like me, if not, apologies). Or maybe watch some of Kwan's podcast series where he and other Asian Americans go through the book page-by-page giving their reactions and reasons behind them. You may or may not come away with the same conclusions as Kwan and many other Asian Americans, but try not to dismiss their reactions and offense.

I appreciated the quotes from Kwan and "DeeEm Steve" (Kwan's podcast partner on the OA series), which show them both to be reasonable guys . . . . and also exposed that they, or Kwan at least, have been subjected to harassment from the toxic side of our community, sadly-but-not-surprisingly.

DeeEmSteve (via the linked article) said:
In order for D&D to grow into a more inclusive hobby, both Wizards of the Coast and the role-playing community need to listen to diverse voices without falling back on “knee-jerk reactions,” said Kwan’s podcast co-host, who asked to be identified only by his Twitter name, @DeeEmSteve.

“I think it’s very easy for human beings who have a connection with a piece of media to say, ‘Well, if it’s bad, am I a bad person?’” he said. “The answer is obviously no, you’re not a bad person. But the media you’re consuming has problems, and [in this case,] those problems are that it takes Asian stereotypes, packages them up and lets people play with those very harmful things.”

@DeeEmSteve added: “Every single creator — regardless of their education, resource and empathy as a person — is going to bring biases and privileges into their writing.” He said he hopes Wizards of the Coast will “normalize the practice” of hiring sensitivity readers for future books inspired by real-world cultures and peoples.
 

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