D&D General Dungeons & Dragons Sneak Peek at Gameholecon: 50th Anniversary Adventure, Rod of Seven Parts, The Endless Stair, Tsojcanth, Barrier Peaks?

I was leaving a panel at GameHoleCon when Chris Perkins walked in and then Justice and Bill and then quite a few other WotC folk! So I stayed.

I'm glad I did because what started as a very funny trivia game challenge to the WotC folk and some of the audience soon turned into a discussion about things they are working on. Cool things. Oh and some of those questions were by Jon Peterson and were hard! I pride myself in getting a couple correct! Iron Rations for the win! Chris Lindsay talked about the DMSGuild too, and strongly hinted to me about the Manual of the Planes. I just wasn't on the same plane.

Anyway they discussed things that have already been covered, but I think with a bit more detail on particular things. This was more of a conversation than a presentation after all.

• Ron Lundeen discussed the internal playtests and that he liked it when he would see similar things discussed in the same ways in both public and private testing.
• Bill Benham discussed Jaquaysing the maps and adventures and how they are taking that more to heart. I think she was on everyone's mind at the panel, see this thread if you would, she could use our help.
• Ron also dicussed how he learned that scrolls are a secret magic item table of power and rarity for magic items generally. That's a nice hint I'll have to take a closer look at.

And then Chris talked about how their adventures take this fine line of between having too much and overwhelming new people yet also having to satisfy old hats like myself.

• The new core books will have an update to format and art like the more recent books.
• Gateway to new players was a term they kept using for the new PHB and even the DMG.
• Oh and they mentioned Tasha’s Bubbling Cauldron as a new spell, which Hollie will be delighted with.
• All three books will have mostly new art from new artists too, like from two concept artists from Obi Wan and the Avatar shows.

Then they went on to the DMG and how it'll talk about what a DM does, what are the parts of the game, the books and even how to use the DM Screen in play.

• It'll have handouts and tools to help you organize and build your notes and show you a campaign setting designed to be customized as a tutorial to make it your own and eventually build one from scratch.
• There will be new magic items to fill in more rarity niches and more cool common ones too.
• And finally we'll get the 1980 cartoon series magic items, something Chris seemed almost giddy about.

The Monster Manual will have more high level creatures and they noted things they'll put in stat blocks that were missing before, like proficiency bonus.

'Romp around the multiverse', I don't think that's a new book title, but it's a new kind of anthology book that revisits all the things they've done in D&D, a '50th anniversary book'. Chris Perkins actually ran the Ravenloft adventure at the convention, I wish I'd captured the events he ran because I'm guessing the title and a few details are in that entry. Anyone here play in his games? Care to share?

And then Chris started to display cool secrets. I'm not sure if any of these are separate books or part of the above mentioned book, but I think they are separate books the way Chris was hinting. I must also offer an apology. There was no way I could get all of these images. I was caught off guard and in a bit of awe. The last one especially is just killing me, it was wonderful and Chris refused to show me after the panel with that wry smile of his.

So here is the only clear image I got. What do you see? Give me your guesses and I'll later give you what the jokes were they made. I even got a laugh out of the crew with one!

However the missing last image was my biggest regret. It was a cute fluffy bunny on a stump...... Oh the agony! I got a selfie with Chris as a consolation prize!

OK I’ll spill more. I’m not sure but they indeed seemed to be talking about multiple books and this new book for the 50th. I think they intentionally obfuscated things.

• The key to me is that the 50th book is a visit to all the 5e adventures and the stuff that isn’t from those are either for the story to tie them together or are from other books
• The bunny was undead, a Sheep in Wolfs clothing. It was a brand new painting and I didn’t recognize the artist.
• My joke was that the Rod would fall apart way to easily, as they tried to hint what it was.

So from what they were taking about I think.

• A D&D 50th Anniversary book
• An Endless Stair book
• A Rod of Seven parts book
• And Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
• Oh and Tsojcanth

Please note those are all guesses by me. Oh and Tsojcanth.

Chris did say that the D&D 50th book had been announced but I can’t find anything on it.

 

[MGibster]

To be sure, I think that if they do Greyhawk in the 2024 DMG they will do a great job of making it inclusive, and not just in the broader social sense but in the "if it's in D&D it's in Greyhawk" sense.

WotC simply can't please everyone. And in truth they really shouldn't try. Just concentrate on making a good game and the rest will follow.

I wonder if the baggage is worth it, compared to using something new. There are plenty of folks on this very forum that prefer current WotC not touch the old settings. Wouldn't you just sidestep that issue* by using something new and equally bland -- er, "easily modified"?

I'm in the camp of the former for the most part. It's not that I don't want new versions of Dark Sun or Birthright, it's just that I feel those games had a chance, so let's go with something new instead. On the other hand I do think having a default setting for D&D is most useful for new players. And such a setting should be more of a kitchen sink where almost all the options available through D&D products are available to the players. I think Greyhawk works fine for that.

This might be blasphemy, and excuse me as I put my great helm on, but it not like like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms feel all that different to me. They're both just generic D&D to me.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Knights and heraldry are not part of traditional swords and sorcery adventures except occasionally as antagonists.

They traditionally show up in romantic and Arthurian fantasy, which don't feature the over the top adventures typical in pulp.

That's a very common issue here on ENWorld.

Pulp magazine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sword and sorcery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Eclectic" isn't the same as "pulpy."

Fox, Carter and de Camp have done sword and sorcery stories, especially Conan and Conan knock-off stories. There are a multiple barbarian areas of Greyhawk, but the Shield Lands aren't them, and the setting overall isn't built around sword and sorcery or pulpy adventure. Even areas that seem like they might be a good fit, like the Pomarj, are surrounded by areas that aren't, so redefining Oerth as a pulp/swords and sorcery setting requires ignoring a lot of the setting.

It would be easier to just make a sword and sorcery setting from scratch, rather than trying to get a handful of Greyhawk fans to buy the book with a product that would, by necessity, ignore a lot of what they love about it, to serve the new genre it's being shoehorned into.

A good chunk of the Eastern Faerun is inspired by Pulp, I mean especially the Unapproachable East and to a lesser extent the Old Empires region, with the former being highly inspired by Conan, Thay = Stygia, Rasheman = Cimmeria, Aquilonia = Aglarond, plus stuff like Warlocks and Nomadic tribes in Narfell.

And to the South you have more Historical Inspired Sword and Sorcery. Most of the big fights until presently were in the regions past.

The North, Northwestern, and Central regions of FR are more along the lines of Reinannce, further south Persian influenced, with touches of the Lost World of Conan Doyle in Chult, and Indian & weirdly Halflings culture in the Shining very East South.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

WotC simply can't please everyone. And in truth they really shouldn't try. Just concentrate on making a good game and the rest will follow.


I'm in the camp of the former for the most part. It's not that I don't want new versions of Dark Sun or Birthright, it's just that I feel those games had a chance, so let's go with something new instead. On the other hand I do think having a default setting for D&D is most useful for new players. And such a setting should be more of a kitchen sink where almost all the options available through D&D products are available to the players. I think Greyhawk works fine for that.

This might be blasphemy, and excuse me as I put my great helm on, but it not like like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms feel all that different to me. They're both just generic D&D to me.

They feel vastly different to me, it's just that that different can't be summed up in simple sentence, because they are multidimensional settings instead of 1 dimensional settings.

 

[Parmandur]

This might be blasphemy, and excuse me as I put my great helm on, but it not like like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms feel all that different to me. They're both just generic D&D to me.

Not to pick on you specifically, because I see a lot of people say this amd this is just the most recent example...but I've been reading through the Grey Box and the Greyhawk box set a lot recently, and they are very distinct to me. Greyhawk feels like it was written by a Silent Generation American hardcore war gamer who was really into Adventure fiction from the 30'-50's and begrudgingly included a few token Tolkienisms cuz that'swhat the kids loke these days, while FR feels like it was written by a Baby Boomer Canadian hippie literary nerd who really liked Tolkien. Like, really really liked Tolkien, and Narnia for that matter.

 

[Zaukrie]

WotC simply can't please everyone. And in truth they really shouldn't try. Just concentrate on making a good game and the rest will follow.


I'm in the camp of the former for the most part. It's not that I don't want new versions of Dark Sun or Birthright, it's just that I feel those games had a chance, so let's go with something new instead. On the other hand I do think having a default setting for D&D is most useful for new players. And such a setting should be more of a kitchen sink where almost all the options available through D&D products are available to the players. I think Greyhawk works fine for that.

This might be blasphemy, and excuse me as I put my great helm on, but it not like like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms feel all that different to me. They're both just generic D&D to me.

Truth

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Not to pick on yoy specifically, ecause I see a lot of people say this...but I've been reading through the Grey. Ox and the Greyhawk box set a fsut recently, and they are very distinct to me. Greyhawk feels like it was written by a Silent Generation American hardcore war gamer who was really into Adventure fiction from the 30'-50's and begrudginglyinvluded a few token Tolkieniams cuz that'swhat the kids loke these days, while FR feels like it was written by a Baby Boomer Canadian hippie literary berd who really liked Tolkien. Like, really really liked Tolkien, and Narnia for that matter.

And Conan. And that Grey Mouser fellow.

There Tolkien elements to FR might be slightly stronger then in Greyhawk, but they are still very, very different from Tolkien, Ed's elves are much hornier, and less chaste, and the Catholism influences of Tolkiens are completely absent from the Realms, replace by more Canadian hippy values, more wonderfully pagan in nature.

I'm glad you noted the Narnia influences because some times those get ignored, but they are very strong, again minus the Christian element mostly (Nobanion and Imater being exceptions).

As I've stated else where the Conan influences get stronger the more eastwards you go. And then there are all the none Greenwood elements that got added, much of it early on after the Grey Box, but which have their fans too.

I run into one highly ubscure such example, Achae, which was originally created by Ray Winninger back in 1987 as just an island you could drop into any setting, inspired by the Greek and Romans, that was mostly about the Archaen games, in an adventure called Blood and Laurels, but later in Tales of the Outer Planes, a year later got place in the Forgotten Realms, abit distant from Faerun by hundreds of miles, and a Mount Olympus placed there that acted as a Portal to THE MOUNT OLYMPUS on Arborea, the key being climbing the mountain. This was done to give a way for Forgotten Realms players to do Ray Winninger's Mount Olympus adventure, but in a way that didn't interfere the main story lines, so it was kept far away from the main events, but close enough should you want to use the Island of Achea. Tales of the Outer Planes was released in 1988 so it makes sense he was encouraged to create a link to FR and his adventures.

 

[Parmandur]

So, between what @uncanny_kate and @darjr have shared, we can say that there is at least one book:

- The previously announced Vecna world hopping campaign, which involves some recognizable names sending the PCs after pieces of the Rod of Seven Parts to places such as Death House in Ravenloft, and at least Dragonlance and Eberron as well. This is a 50th anniversary celebration, that is revisiting highlights from previous 5E material especially.

We have some hints for what may either be the same book, or for one or more others: Perkins &Co. left several attendees with the impression that they were discussing more than one book, and more than 4 books in the big 50th seems probable since we have had 5 books a year two years running now. The hints we got that be for this Vecna book or another book or even books:

- The Infinite Staircase us playing a major role in a book. This feels like it could play into the Vecna plot, or be the hub for a more casual Adventure anthology thay could maybe mix with Vecna.

- Drelzna (sp?), Tasha's vampire daughter from S4 Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth will play a role of some part in some book, Perkins shared the original (stunning) piece of art. I could see this either playing into Vecna/Rod, or Infinite Dtaircase, or both if that's the same, or it's own book.

- Similarly, we will see the Wolf-in-Sheeps-Clothing in some form, with hints at S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks getting a big to-do. I could see thus pairing with S4 or not, either in Vecna/Rod or Infinite Sraircase or Vecna/Ros/Staircase, or in it's own book entirely.

Anything further that people are seeing, or were there and heard a bit of tease we haven't beaten to death yet?

 

[overgeeked]

WotC simply can't please everyone. And in truth they really shouldn't try. Just concentrate on making a good game and the rest will follow.

While that's true, they shouldn't worry about pleasing everyone...that's exactly what they're trying to do with their surveys. Not literally everyone, no. But design to the widest possible audience...within a tiny self-selecting minority of those fans who take their surveys.

I'm in the camp of the former for the most part. It's not that I don't want new versions of Dark Sun or Birthright, it's just that I feel those games had a chance, so let's go with something new instead. On the other hand I do think having a default setting for D&D is most useful for new players. And such a setting should be more of a kitchen sink where almost all the options available through D&D products are available to the players. I think Greyhawk works fine for that.

While I'd much rather get new stuff, especially stuff that appeals to me, I understand why they're rebooting settings. They're popular, fans know them, they're less risky, and they're less costly to make. Just like why sequels and reboots dominate cinema.

This might be blasphemy, and excuse me as I put my great helm on, but it not like like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms feel all that different to me. They're both just generic D&D to me.

I completely agree.

 

[Parmandur]

And Conan. And that Grey Mouser fellow.

There Tolkien elements to FR might be slightly stronger then in Greyhawk, but they are still very, very different from Tolkien, Ed's elves are much hornier, and less chaste, and the Catholism influences of Tolkiens are completely absent from the Realms, replace by more Canadian hippy values, more wonderfully pagan in nature.

I'm glad you noted the Narnia influences because some times those get ignored, but they are very strong, again minus the Christian element mostly (Nobanion and Imater being exceptions).

As I've stated else where the Conan influences get stronger the more eastwards you go. And then there are all the none Greenwood elements that got added, much of it early on after the Grey Box, but which have their fans too.

I run into one highly ubscure such example, Achae, which was originally created as just an island you could drop into any setting, inspired by the Greek and Romans, that was mostly about the Archaen games, but later in Tales of the Outer Planes, a year later got place in the Forgotten Realms, abit distant from Faerun by hundreds of miles, and a Mount Olympus placed there that acted as a Portal to THE MOUNT OLYMPUS on Arborea, the key being climbing the mountain. This was done to give a way to Forgotten Realms players to do Ray Winninger's Mount Olympus adventure, but in a way that didn't interfere the main story lines, so it was kept far away from the main events, but close enough should you want to use the Island of Achea.

I think that the Conan and Liever influences are way big in both cases, and where the overlap lies.

As fast the Elves go, the whole Return plot line (that personally I feel later FR kind of dropped the ball on) is a major driver for Adventure in the Heartlands and Sword Coast as it was originally, and that was Greenwood really playing with Tolkien's
universal themes about loss and change and rehret that I would not expect to see in Greyhawk, nor do I In fact.

And in Greyhawk I see some real politick and military planning on Gygax part that I would not expect to find in the FR, nor do I see it there.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I think that the Conan and Liever influences are way big in both cases, and where the overlap lies.

As fast the Elves go, the whole Return plot line (that personally I feel later FR kind of dropped the ball on) is a major driver for Adventure in the Heartlands and Sword Coast as it was originally, and that was Greenwood really playing with Tolkien's
universal themes about loss and change and rehret that I would not expect to see in Greyhawk, nor do I In fact.

And in Greyhawk I see some real politick and military planning on Gygax part that I would not expect to find in the FR, nor do I see it there.

"Ed's earliest writings were made exclusively for his own entertainment, taking inspiration authors such as Rudyard Kipling, J.R.R. Tolkien, P.G. Wodehouse, and Leslie Charteris, among others. Ed greatly appreciated a style of worldbuilding employed by Fritz Leiber, in which each story in a series stood independently on its own, but contributed along with others to the lore of a rich, ever-expanding world.[6][4]"