Duration of Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc.

[Pielorinho]

I went for a wishy-washy compromise. Each of the statbuff spells can be cast in one of two versions. The first version is acute: it lasts 1 min/level.

The second duration is chronic: it lasts one hour/level, or until the target rolls a saving throw or an initiative check. That is, it goes away once the adrenaline strikes, but hangs around otherwise. If you're doing a cross-country trek, or if you're researching something in the library, or if you're going to a fancy ball where you want to impress the nobility, thisi s the version you cast. If you're going into a fight, or if you're exploring a trapped ruin, you want the acute version.

The players seem pretty happy with this compromise. My one objection to the 3.5 version is that it did away with some interesting non-combat uses for the spells. In fact, this is one of my major problems with 3.5 in general, that everything is even more geared toward fighting.

Daniel

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I went for a wishy-washy compromise. Each of the statbuff spells can be cast in one of two versions. The first version is acute: it lasts 1 min/level.

The second duration is chronic: it lasts one hour/level, or until the target rolls a saving throw or an initiative check. That is, it goes away once the adrenaline strikes, but hangs around otherwise. If you're doing a cross-country trek, or if you're researching something in the library, or if you're going to a fancy ball where you want to impress the nobility, thisi s the version you cast. If you're going into a fight, or if you're exploring a trapped ruin, you want the acute version.

The players seem pretty happy with this compromise. My one objection to the 3.5 version is that it did away with some interesting non-combat uses for the spells. In fact, this is one of my major problems with 3.5 in general, that everything is even more geared toward fighting.

Daniel

Oooh! I like the compromise very much! You are correct that adding a little grace or charisma is great at the grand ball, but won't help much if it lasts only minutes. Nice way to have both a combat and non-combat use - I will now proceed to steal this idea, but will give proper credit.

 

[JoeBlank]

I like the house rule I have seen proposed whereby Extend spell increases duration scale, rather than just doubling duration. So 1 round/lvl becomes 1 min./lvl ---> 10 min./lvl ---> 1 hour/lvl.

So if you want a buffing caster, take extend spell and double extend the buff spells. But for most casters, the duration will be only 1 min./lvl.

I've never used this house rule, but have seen others suggest it.

 

[Graywolf-ELM]

Oooh! I like the compromise very much! You are correct that adding a little grace or charisma is great at the grand ball, but won't help much if it lasts only minutes. Nice way to have both a combat and non-combat use - I will now proceed to steal this idea, but will give proper credit.

I'm going to use this as well.

GW

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

My one objection to the 3.5 version is that it did away with some interesting non-combat uses for the spells.

I've found just the opposite. Which do you think is more interesting:

A) The bard must fasttalk her way past the guards at the mansion, find someone to introduce her to the governor amongst all the guests at a party, try to get him away from his advisors for a few minutes, and talk him into pardoning her rogue friend who got caught with someone else's property. Eagle's Splendor will come in handy, but should she cast it before she nears the mansion, or sneak away and cast it once inside so she has more time to find the governor before it wears off? She could cast it multiple times, but then she's out of spells for the day.

B) The bard casts it once, and has a buffed charisma for hours. She can talk her way past the guards going in and out, bluff the governor, persuade someone to give her an introduction, and intimidate the serving wench into giving her the good wine.

Personally, I find (A) a heck of a lot more fun.

 

[Pielorinho]

Rodrigo, I don't find A more fun, personally, but that's just my opinion.

But what about the other examples? Afet the wizard is assigned to research the cult of the demon-lord Dehakka, so she heads down to the Libraries of Tushnamatay to research. If Fox's cunning lasts one minute/level, it's a pretty useless spell to cast before spending a day in the tomes. If it lasts one hour/level, however, it's a great research aid.

Similarly, when Groma the barbarian leads his elite warriors on a cross-plains forced march, he might ask the tribe's shaman to cast bull's strength on the warriors so they can move faster (or, rather, so they can hustle for longer). But only if it's a one hour/level casting time.

In other words, there really are some times in which a long-term buff is the only spell that'll be effective.

Glad you other folks like the compromise!
Daniel

 

[Coredump]

Hmmm.... Here is another compromise, but I just thought of it, and I think it is a bit clumsy still.


Duration is 1hr/lvl; until initiative/saving throw; then each minute counts as one hour.

Level 10 cast bull strength. 6 hours later get into combat, roll initiative: have 4 minutes left of the spell.

This way it is an 'all day spell', but not nearly as useful, since it will only help for one encounter.

 

[Epametheus]

I've found just the opposite. Which do you think is more interesting:

A)

B)

Personally, I find (A) a heck of a lot more fun.

Um, a +2 bonus to skills checks isn't going to turn A into B. The non-spellcasting related benefits from enhancing the mental stats really aren't that good.

I can see why the duration nerf was done for balance purposes, but it also seems just a bit too much. They've gone from "far too handy to pass up" to "only really usable in emergencies, and you have far more important things to be doing or casting in emergencies."

 

[Dimwhit]

I will always hate the 3.5 version of the spells. My 3.0 Wizard has a couple stat-boosting spells, but he doesn't use any on the party and they don't ask. If I were to convert him to 3.5, I would erase those spells from my spellbook and pick different ones. There is too much to do at the beginning of a combat to have to waste a round casting one of those. And Lord help you if you need to cast a couple on different party members. That idea is all but impossible. (Unless you're standing in front of a closed door, ready to rush to the enemy you know is behind it.)

At 10min/level, I still wouldn't have liked it too much, but I could stand it. Seems a reasonable alternative. I just never saw a problem with the hour/level. In parties I play with that used them, we still had people die, miss their attacks, fail their saves, etc., so I'd hardly call it unbalanced.

 

[UltimaGabe]

The thing I don't like about teh 1 minute/level duration is that you preety much have to cast it in battle to get the use out of it. And since your wasting more than just a spell slot, your also using a standard action... that +4 to a stat starts looking preety lousy.

When I could casting scorching ray or invis in a combat, getting the +4 to a stat doesn't seem worth it.

A lot of people went with 10 min/lvl, because you could still cast them at the start of a dungeon and make good use of them, it wasn't the all day buff routine but it was still good.

Finally, the 1 minute/lvl makes extending them mostly pointless. 10 min/lvl extended you still get a fair bang for your buck.

Exactly. In most of the games I'm in, you never know when a battle is going to occur, or how long the battle is going to last- sometimes there's battle after battle and the gauntlet lasts for hours of gameplay, but other times the battles pop up and are over in a round. Personally, I think it's dumb as all heck to have to waste a spell slot a round into battle to cast a buff on the fighter, only to have the battle end before he gets to benefit from it.

In our games, with most spells that were either nerfed or just made useless in 3.5, we're generally allowed to choose which version we want to use. If we want a definite +4 to a stat, and we know that that's the only battle we're gonna be in, we use the 3.5 buffs. If we want to take the chance of rolling a 1 on the d4, but we want it to last longer, than we use the 3e buff instead. If we want an extra partial action to cast an extra spell per round, we use the 3e Haste. If we want all of our friends to gain an extra attack instead, however, we use 3.5 Haste. When we divy up the treasure at the end of adventures, we generally find mixes of 3e and 3.5 potions/scrolls/items among the horde.