Duration of Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc.

[Epametheus]

I use 10 Min/Level for the animal buff spells, with a maximum time of 90 minutes.

It gives players plenty of time to work with, AND keeps a pesky level 18 Wizard from using extend spell to get a 6 hour/day boost to Int.

In my games combat is over in about 5-8 rounds. 1 Minute/level spells are practically useless in this situation. The player is much better off casting a 1 round/level spell or a direct attack spell.

A L18 wizard that can't provide himself with a +4 or +6 Int item should be killed on the grounds of being hopelessly incompetent. Actually, he probably never would've made it to 18th level in the first place; the L2 stat buffing spells aren't going to grant a caster bonus spells, after all.

In my experience, the stat-boosting spells were usually used as a supplement; serious/smart adventurers acquire stat boosting items for their prime stats ASAP.

Granted, this requires that they have the money for it, but the stat items are relatively cheap and the normal guidelines assume that you'd have enough money, anyways.

Though a wand would make a relatively cheap alternative for a +4 stat item.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

If you think that was what I was saying, you're seriously mistaken. The new version is arguably still worthwhile for trip fighters (because it gets triple use--attack rolls, trip checks, and damage rolls) instead of the normal double use (attack and damage rolls). I don't know whether the new version favors trip fighters or not (since they'll face fewer strength buffed opponents but will not usually be strength buffed themselves, it seems like it could be a wash). However, a trip fighter is definitely a best-case scenario for using a bull's strength spell.

PS if the new version nerfs trip-fighters all the better.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Your primary stats? You wanted items to buff those, not the spells. Your secondary stats? sure, maybe, but is it worth the spell slot?

Yes, it was definitely worth boosting your secondary stat with. For 1 hour/level... it even came in a convenient staff format if you wanted to spend some cash on it.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

In 3.0 the "animal" buffs were nice, could be a bit worrisome iat higher levels in their extended versions but never really dominated our gaming. Why ? Because "Dispel Magic" is a pretty popular spell in our campaigns - and a single well placed "Dispel Magic" can set you back several buffs and really screw up your combat strategies. Still - both as player and GM, I can live with their duration being shortened....some.

But cutting down their duration to a 1 minute/level was silly . It makes pre- combat preparation almost impossible, especially if planning an ambush other encounter where the most you know is that combat will start "soon".... If you cast them in the beginning rounds of a combat, you are not really acting smart - disabling opposition (say with fellow 2nd level spells like Scorching Ray, Web, Hold Person, Silence 15' , etc. Not even contemplating more powerful spells ) is far more important at this point of the encounter (opposition that is helpless does no damage or buff its comrades, does it ?) than hitting your fighter with his "needed" dose of steroids.
As a house rule - we use the 10 mins/level rule, with a limit of an hour, but I imagine 90 minutes etc would do equally well. And if he needs that +2 to str so badly to, say, trip an opponent, get next to him and "aid" him (assuming you are an armoured cleric ), not waste a spell. The only time I see one of the animal spells cast (in the one campaign still using 1 min/level durations, level 11 chars atm) in mid-fight, is when the wizard buffs himself for enhanced Spell save DCs. Go figure. Because his spells have to get through...

The real problem is - the way the animal buffs are atm, they become mere "key" spells for later item creation and maybe some specialised situations, but that is about the usefulness of them. No sorcerer is ever going to pick them, or a bard.... clerics and Wizards at least have the option to use something else in their slots and have the knowledge in reserve for the strange day they are needed.

 

[0-hr]

What I don't like about the new durations is that they set up the "race through the dungeon" scenario. It forces the players to track time to the round, even after combat is over, so that they might be able to get in two or three fights before these "speed buffs" wear out.

When it was only the wizard's Shield spell running out, players would hang out in a room and even look around a bit. Now it's a big rush for three rooms, then go back and search - rinse & repeat. It's just silly.

I'm against anything that makes D&D less of an RPG and more of a video game with dice.

 

[Eldragon]

A L18 wizard that can't provide himself with a +4 or +6 Int item should be killed on the grounds of being hopelessly incompetent. Actually, he probably never would've made it to 18th level in the first place; the L2 stat buffing spells aren't going to grant a caster bonus spells, after all.

In my experience, the stat-boosting spells were usually used as a supplement; serious/smart adventurers acquire stat boosting items for their prime stats ASAP.

Granted, this requires that they have the money for it, but the stat items are relatively cheap and the normal guidelines assume that you'd have enough money, anyways.

Though a wand would make a relatively cheap alternative for a +4 stat item.

Not everyone follows the "Standard" dnd mantra of magic shops being more common than supermarkets. In the games I run magic items are incredibly rare. Powerful, but rare. The only way characters ever get exactly what they want in a magic item is if they make it themself via item creation feats.

It is my personal belief that a DnD character should never be based around the "phat l00t" that the character has gained over his/her adventures. Items can help refine a character, give him some flair, but a PC should never feel weak because they are level X and don't have a certain item yet.

When I played with magic items being more common, practically everyone filled up their available slots with items that cannot be easily replicated by a spell. e.g. amulet of natural armor instead of amulet of wisdom.

Every game is different, and this is what house rules are for. I can't imagine playing in a PnP game where the magic items are as common as in a computer game.

 

[Destil]

My problems with the 3.0 version of the spell were multi-empowering & the stupid random roll that made you recaluclate everything each time you cast it.

Duration was never an issue, I saw most parties (both as a Player and DM) switching over to magical items for the most important stats generaly around 6th-10th level.

Multi-empowering was fixed in 3.5 because it's simply not allowed at all (which I don't really like). The random bonus wasn't and you still need to caluclate it every time, and now you need to do so more often if you even use the spells. And as many people have said it's often not worth the action to cast them anymore, since there's better short term spells you can be throwing out. If I wanted to keep the 1 min/level duation I'd most likely make them range short and have a built in quicken spell feat like feather fall.

My own 3.25 house rules versions have a 10 min/level duration (a good comprimise), and grant a fixed bonus (both for ease of use and because I still allow multi-empowered spells) of +2 at 3rd-6th caster level, +4 at 7th-9th and +6 at 11th+.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

In the game I am in the Animal Buffs have gone from used every day as part of the normal buffing to never used. The only one that was used was Bull's Strength and even that did not go to all fighters since one already had an item. As has been mentioned elsewhere this has not stopped morning buffing. Hero's Feast, Status, Mage Armour, and Magic Vestment are all done as a regular routine. The end result for us is that we still have a morning buffing routine, but the Animal Buffs are no longer even considered as viable spells to memorize. The spells were not abused by our group and the end result is that for us at any rate is that the designers effectively removed the spells from the game. Choices have been removed, before it was do I take Bull's Stength or another spell that might be useful that day, now that choice has been removed with no other alternative to replace it.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

Well, from my perspective, buff spells aren't meant to last through an entire dungeon crawl. Why? Because that would effectively mean the character's stats are ALWAYS 2-5 points higher than they should be. If the magic lasts as long as it's needed (i.e. the dungeon crawl), then the character will have it on the whole time. So what's the point in having magic items or even having lower stats for that matter? I can see having buff spells to get you through the whole battle, but not the whole dungeon.

And, IMC, it was buff-central every morning. BS, CG, BE, ES, FC every morning - often on the same character. It was ridiculous and it did indeed eat up all the 2nd-lvl spells. Hmmm? Need a cure mod? Sorry, I buffed myself up this morning. Too bad for you...

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Well, from my perspective, buff spells aren't meant to last through an entire dungeon crawl. Why? Because that would effectively mean the character's stats are ALWAYS 2-5 points higher than they should be. If the magic lasts as long as it's needed (i.e. the dungeon crawl), then the character will have it on the whole time. So what's the point in having magic items or even having lower stats for that matter? I can see having buff spells to get you through the whole battle, but not the whole dungeon.

And, IMC, it was buff-central every morning. BS, CG, BE, ES, FC every morning - often on the same character. It was ridiculous and it did indeed eat up all the 2nd-lvl spells. Hmmm? Need a cure mod? Sorry, I buffed myself up this morning. Too bad for you...

The problem you list in the first paragraph is balanced by the second. Firstly you can only fully buff one person or partially buff everyone. Second even if you do buff at 1/hr a level they will not be up all the time. At 20th level you still don't have a full day, and if starting at 12th level you do start doing it twice a day that only leaves half the number of slots availible. Sure you can start using higher level slots for this but then that is even more spells you won't have. Added to this is the problem of loosing all those buffs and spell slots with one well placed Dispel Magic durring the first encounter. Certainly going this way is an option but so are other min/max aproaches. What you end up with then is Fighter with higher stats (which can be lowered by a common spell) but a lower BAB and fewer feats. That does not sound unbalanced to me.