Dwarves and other races

[Humanophile]

For a strange reason, I'm less bothered by dwarven munchkinism than by elven munchkinism. They could give the dwarves a +2 Str bonus and a free Endurance feat on top of that, it would annoy me less than if they gave something like free foolproof unspyable telepathy or disease immunity to the elves.

Probably because fanboy dwarf players are less vocal, or at least less obnoxious, than fanboy elf players.

I think this closes in on one of the major reasons Dwarves got so powerful over time.

Elves have rabid elven fanboys. Elves also have rabid anti-elven fanboy types. So while the fanboys keep seeing elf-pumping abilities as "balanced", elf haters do their best to keep elves from getting too powerful. With strong pro and strong con opinions, neither side gets to dominate writing or playtesting, therefore some level of balance was reached.

Dwarves, on the other hand, were one of the first things I nerfed when I read the 3.5 PHB. I guess that rabid dwarf fans decided that since they liked dwarves so much, all these perks "wouldn't be unbalancing", and there was nobody focused on making sure those fanboys were reined in. I'm hoping it'll happen soon, though.

And as for orcs and their ilk, what bothers me about them isn't being underpowered, it's that they're so bland. Even a couple of minor skill boosts would help alleviate their lack of flavor, and while +2 Str isn't anything to sneeze at, there's something about the player psyche that likes quirks and little goodies. Orcs come out decidedly short on those.

 

[Li Shenron]

...but the Half-Orc is a decent race for some classes...

But that's just awful a race which is "decent" for some classes?

If you are playing a Fighter or Barbarian (or similar) who wants to have 20 Str at 1st level, it's the perfect race. Except that it's quite munchkininsm, but that's still ok.

If you play ANYTHING else, why should you play a Half-Orc, besides some special RP concept (or Orc-only PrCl)? And of course, if you play arcane casters it's half-suicidal.

I like the other races because more or less there's always something useful for every class. The human bonuses are 100% your choice, therefore useful to every class. Elves get bow profs if you don't have them, but if you have them they still give you some bonus vs Enchantment and Spot/Listen which help fighters-like. Every race has little things that are useful for everyone, except HOrc (yes, they have Darkvision, but so do Dwarves with tons of other stuff).

 

[Thanee]

Yep, some skill bonuses, like a +4 to Intimidate, wouldn't hurt.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ferret]

The way I play 3.5 is that dwarves are pretty much 3.0 dwarves (cos I like the idea of racial levels I'd change them to give the flavour full abilities) and Half-orcs and orcs are treated as large for Intimidate and grapple.

 

[Beholder Bob]

Ah man! Math errors.
My evaluation shows my public education math skills! 1/2 elf skill values (using my own biased system) misjudged. My apology to Thanee.
My judgement of human skill values - I've been debated down on it, it is less useful then the skill bonus for +2 INT, with no DC or INT based bonuses so reduced from +2 to 3/4. The shame!! My apology to Thels.

The current standing, for what its worth

HUMANS
+1.5 (feat) +0.75 (skill) +0.5 (fav class)

DWARVES
+1 (Stats) –0.5 (move) +1 (vision) +0.5 (stone cunning)
+1 (ac vs giant) +0.5 (weapon familiar) +1 (stability)
+1.5 (saves) +0 (spec foes) +0.75 (skills)

ELVES
+0 (Stats) +0.25 (imm sleep) +0.5 (vision)
+1.5 (skills) +1 (secret door) +1 (weap familiar)
+ 0.5 (+2 saves)

GNOMES
+0 (Stats) +0 (small/move), +0.5 (vision)
+0.5 (weap familiar) +0.5 (saves)
+1 (illusion dc) +0 (vs spec foes) +1 (ac vs giant)
+1 (skills) + 1 (spell like ability)

HALF-ELVES
+0.25 (imm sleep) + 0.5 (+2 vs enchant) + 0.5 (vision)
+1.75 (skills) + 0 (elf blood) +0.5 (fav class)

HALF-ORCS
+0 (+2 str-2 int & cha) +1 (vision) +0 (orc blood)

HALFLINGS
+0 (+2/-2 dex/str) +0 (size/speed) +2 (skills)
+1 (save) + 0.5 (thrown/sling)

HUMANS 2.75
DWARVES 6.75
ELVES 4.75
GNOMES 5.5
HALF-ELVES 3.5
HALF-ORCS 1
HALFLINGS 3.5

 

[reapersaurus]

I think many of us are on the same page.
These observations are things that were pointed out to WotC MANY MANY times before they went into modify things for 3.5E - the most baffling thing about 3.5E to me is how they didn't fix the half races

(I also agree that both half-elves and half-orcs are treated badly by Wotc).

+4 to Intimidate is a nice start for half-orcs (nicely giving a Skill Focus and ignoring the CHA penalty for this one stat, which arguably should not only be based on CHA), but I believe the half-races should compare favorably to full races to be considered "balanced", so I think there should be quite a bit more.
Just compare to the elf, gnome, halfling, huamn and dwarf and take a cross-section of power, tweaking it to fit the orc culture/race.
*Throw in Scent (or The Lesser Scent feat; as long as the half-orc has Wisdom of 11+: like the Scent feat (DMG, page 81), except the track check is at a -2, and range decreased to 20 ft.)
* Weapon familiarity Orc Double Ave and Orcish Shotput (even though I think this wouldn't realistically help most half-orcs, at least it's flavor)
* +2 to Survival skill checks and Survival becomes class skill for any half-orc.
* Grants the benefits of the DieHard feat, without needing it's (bull%^&) prerequisite, Endurance.

For instance, a hypothetical small race with -2 str, wis, cha, +2 con, +2 int, and +1 to evocation spell DCs and nothing else

Actually, if you made this hypothetical race, to properly compare to the half-orc, you should make it +2 INT, -2 CON, -2 DEX, give 'em some benefit analogous to Darkvision (not +1 caster level), and take away all other benefits other races get.
The -2 DEX and CON are to further isolate this race to being non-combat, since the half-orc is isolated to combat.

 

[billd91]

I can't see why everybody is so riled up about the 'overpowered' dwarves now. I can agree that the dwarves got more consideration than any other class in 3.5 as far as adding interesting bits to them to make them distinct, but I think some of their powers are being way overrated here.

Movement: I don't see not losing speed when encumbered or in heavy armor to be a big deal considering they were a medium sized creature nerfed on their original movement rates anyway. Not losing speed keeps them back up with their fellow heavy-armored medium creatures. Overall, losing the movement under lighter encumbrances and armors is still a negative applied to the dwarf. Sure, he can now tumble in heavy armor and encumbrances, but the penalties for doing so are pretty significant and most characters with the feat for wearing heavy armor won't have Tumble as a class skill. I don't think this is a significant issue.

Stability: I think the likelihood of facing lots of bull rushes and trips, trips in particular, is also being highly overrated. Sure, it's a nice effect, keeps your opponent from getting a full attack if he's got one because he's spending time standing up. But you suffer an AoO to make that trip unless you've invested 2 feats to prevent it (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip to say nothing of the intelligence) and once you've got Improved Trip and it's +4 bonus to the attempt, you're balancing the bonuses back out. In a couple years of playing, the only character I ever saw trying trip on a semi-regular basis was a monk and that was because his attack bonus was low enough compared to his opponent's AC that the touch attack was the best way to affect the target. Bull Rushes may be more common, but then again, the +4 bonus of having the feat balances against the stability.
I think the stability power of the dwarves will be a frequently unused power of the class.

I agree that Half-orcs could use some spicing up. I generally give them a bonus to intimidate and climb (remember how half-orcs were dynamite climbers in 1st Ed?... of course Halflings sucked at it and that's changed a bit).

 

[Beholder Bob]

...+4 to Intimidate ...
*Throw in Scent (or The Lesser Scent feat...
* Weapon familiarity Orc Double Ave and Orcish Shotput...
* +2 to Survival skill checks and Survival ..class skill ...
* DieHard feat...QUOTE]

I like reapersaurus' ideas, although +4 to a skill is pretty steep. Hmmm
I'd definitly opt for the scent option
Weapon familiarity sounds good
The +2 survival I would change to +2 survival, but only for providing for the needs of 1/2 orcs or orcs (they are hardy, need less shelter, and eat stuff that turns everyone elses stomach - do you really want to eat that ??? the 1/2 orc brought back for dinner?)
Definitly give them survival as a racial skill.
I'm unfamiliar with the feat diehard.

and how about...
+2 save Vs disease
+2 con checks to resist exposure to the elements (as a hot or cold environment, not a fireball or cone of cold)
+1 spot & listen

 

[Thanee]

The +4 was a number I had thrown into the room and reaper got the idea behind it quite well, as it is so high because of the Half-Orcs Cha penalty!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Beholder Bob]

The +4 was a number I had thrown into the room and reaper got the idea behind it quite well, as it is so high because of the Half-Orcs Cha penalty!...

But the standard skill bonus for a race is +1 to +2 (usually +2). A +4 is an immense knack for being intimidating - far more then a normal orc or human (intimidate +0). I like the concept, that 1/2 orcs, having such a tough life, learn survival traits and how to intimidate to avoid confrontation, but a +4 is still a "major deal". A 1/2 orc with a +4 would radiate attitude - which might be nice, but wouldn't fit every 1/2 orc. I would rather a +2 and additional abilities.