Dwarves don't sell novels

[Hussar]

didn't violate the logic of the fantasy milieu.

Again, what? Fantasy logic? Isn't that the entire point of fanstasy that it defies logic?

There is absolutely no logical reason for a rust monster. It is just something that got tossed in because it seemed like a cool idea. The inspiration was a small plastic toy. There's no fantasy logic there.

There is, however, game design logic. It makes sense to have a monster that can take away stuff from players when you design a game like this. It makes sense for clerics to be able to heal because it's no fun spending weeks of game time healing. There's a whole host of elements that exist in the game for no reason other than the fact that its a game.

Defending those elements as somehow fitting into fantasy is fallacious. They don't fit into fantasy. They do, however, fit into a fantasy game.

But, this is getting us nowhere. You keep bringing up strawmen like "supercomputers" in an attempt to prove your point. I've proven my point sufficiently to myself and no amount of arguing is going to move this forward.

Thanks for the convo.

 

[Zander]

Again, what? Fantasy logic? Isn't that the entire point of fanstasy that it defies logic?

It lacks formal logic but has an internal one.

There is absolutely no logical reason for a rust monster.

Exactly! Which is why you can't have science in a fantasy game world.

But, this is getting us nowhere. You keep bringing up strawmen like "supercomputers" in an attempt to prove your point.

Turjan brought up supercomputers, not me. I haven't brought up anything for the purpose of knocking it down. If you think that I'm making a stink over nothing, you are not obliged to respond. My guess is there are lots of people who read this thread, didn't think it was an issue and moved on. I'm sorry if you felt compelled to reply. That wasn't my intention. I certainly didn't mean to provoke a reaction for its own sake.

Thanks for the convo.

My pleasure.

 

[MarkB]

I'm not opposed to developments in fantasy but any additions should at least not compromise the integrity of the fantasy of any particular game world (or if they do, they should be restricted to particular game settings).

D&D is designed to provide a basis for playing in a wide variety of fantasy settings. It cannot possibly do that, and at the same time contain no elements that violate some individual fantasy setting.

 

[Gez]

Not nearly to the same extent as, for example, Tolkien for popularity or, as another example, Homer for endurance.

I wish D&D were that popular but sadly it isn't.

Tolkien was a novelist, Homer was an ancient greek storyteller, D&D is a roleplaying game.


Saying D&D is not as enduring as Homer is like saying that motorbikes are less enduring than than horse carriage. It's not even apples and oranges, since both apples and oranges are fruits that are grown on trees. More like comparing potato puree with cuban cigars.

I've already said I disagree with your lumping of all of fantasy's inspiration sources as fantasy itself. Unless you now claim that, for example, military conquests in the antiquity were just big LARPing events, I don't see how you could pretend that RPGs are, like fantasy novels, something that already existed in Homer's time.

RPGs are a niche. Novels are mainstream. You can't compare directly the popularity of an RPG and that of a novel. That's dishonest.

And despite that, D&D has certainly been much more influential to today's fantasy culture than Lord of the Rings. Peter Jackson's LoTR elves have pointed ears -- that's taken from D&D, because Tolkien never described elven ear shape. Likewise, the popular depiction of orcs is taken from Warhammer -- big, musclebound, stupid, green, and tusked. Tolkien's orcs were nothing like that. Petty, cruel, violent, and avaricious, yes. Mentally retarded to the point of painting their chariot red because "red goes faster", no.

Gamer culture is now omnipresent in fantasy and soft sci-fi novels, comics, and computer games. Even people who've never even seen a D&D book have been exposed to many D&Disms, because they're so prevalent now. Take the fantasy standard view of elves: three main races, the high elves (often with golden skin), the wood elves, and the dark elves (practically always black-skinned, with silver hair, and red eyes). And of course, pointy ears. Does that match up with Tolkien's elves? Nope. Does that match with up with D&D's elves? Completely.

 

[Gez]

And I'll add that D&D is for a large part responsible for fantasy becoming mainstream. Who will give fantasy books to friends, buy fantasy movie DVDs, play -- or even make -- fantasy computer games? That's right, gamers. They're the ones who're pushing the genre down everybody else's throat, and helping it catch on on its own.

Ask yourself, how many people play Everquest, Guildwars, or World of Warcraft online? How many play Oblivion or Final Fantasy solo? A lot. A huge lot. And only a tiny percentage of them have actually tried pen and paper RPGs. Yet these games, which convey a huge amount of D&Disms (to say nothing, of course, of the NWN or Baldur's Gate series), would never have existed without D&D.

They could, however, have existed without Tolkien and without Howard. Because, as respectable, popular, and enduring as these authors' works are, they're just a tiny part of D&D's inpirations. D&D would have appeared even in a parallel world with neither John Ronald Reuel nor Robert Ervin, and it wouldn't have been much different from what it is now. The Barbarian class would have been fully Fafhrd, rather than half-Fafhrd/half-Conan. Treants, orcs, halflings, wargs, and giant eagles wouldn't have been there. And, uh, that's all.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I don't read game fiction, IME it is drek, but the elf fetish of WOTC's FR novels has impacted my game "negatively". A couple newer players thought that all elves were like Drizzt, more to the point a combo of Drizzt and movie Legolas. "My character should be able to do anything...He's an elf" At this point a beer is poured over the head of the speaker and they are shown the door.

In honesty after a few sessions these players came around except for occasionsal outbursts. Still the "taint" is forever there.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Treants, orcs, halflings, wargs, and giant eagles wouldn't have been there. And, uh, that's all.

There are similar critters in legends from a variety of cultures- they could have been in the game in some form.

Giant Eagles? Some Native American tribes tell stories of Thunderbirds- not as elemental beings, but as large (20'+ wings) birds who came before storm fronts and snatched up children to eat. (For the record, there are some who think that they may have been describing real animals...)

Treants? Tolkein just lifted those from European legend.

Halflings? Little men feature in the legends of many cultures.

And so forth.

 

[Gez]

Treants? Tolkein just lifted those from European legend.

As far as tree beings go, I'm more familiar with dryads...

Halflings? Little men feature in the legends of many cultures.

Yes. They're called, "gnome" or "sprite" or "boggan"... We would have had the gnome, but not the halfling.

And yes, you can point out the orc in Beowulf, but D&D already has goblins, bugbears, ogres, and trolls; and for wargs, giant talking wolves aren't that hard to imagine -- but D&D already has the Winter Wolf to fill that niche.

 

[Hussar]

Exactly! Which is why you can't have science in a fantasy game world.

Hang on a tick. Perhaps I've been misreading this all along. Maybe our POV aren't as divergent as I thought. Is your problem with adding SF elements to D&D with the science only? Or is it adding any SF element?

If it's a "science only" problem, well, that's not really an issue. You can replace science with magic and it works. Precisely in the way that flesh golems can be created with magic instead of lightning bolts. Frankenstein's monster is a SF idea. It's heralded as the first true SF novel. And, reading the book, it is very much an SF novel.

Yet, I have no problems with flesh golems in my game. Magic is a great tool. You can replace ANYTHING with magic and it works.

Now, if the problem is with drawing any SF element into D&D, that's a separate issue and I don't think we'll agree. Far too much of D&D is drawn from SF sources to ever take them out again. Rust Monsters don't have to make any logical sense in a fantasy world - play the magic card and you're good to go. Mind Flayers work despite being solidly an SF construct (or possibly horror) just because psionics and magic are pretty much the same thing under different names.

Extra-dimensional beings led by an undying queen flying through space on great ships work, because, well, we don't worry about the physics of it all, we chalk it up to magic.

 

[tadk]

maybe i should go read the first posts

but no rust monsters in my games....not ever....

time to read the opening post and maybe we should write dwarven fiction just because....