Dwarves make as good/better primal characters than elves.

[Quartz]

when we're talking about optimum builds, being behind the human for 10 levels isn't optimum.

As I said, humans shouldn't be better, but they should be equal best.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Are you sure about that?

Every dwarf I know sure loves his spirits, especially in a large mug.

I'm going to make a Dwarf Shaman and his spirit companion is going to be a barrel. That, or a Monkey with a rum barrel (Since I happen to have one from a warhammer empire sprue)

You win at dwarf.

 

[adam_antio]

Mhhh.

Dwarves make better shamans than clerics, better druids than paladins. I think this is the "problem" here. This is simply a change in the classic design of dwarves.

 

[Obryn]

Mhhh.

Dwarves make better shamans than clerics, better druids than paladins. I think this is the "problem" here. This is simply a change in the classic design of dwarves.

Dwarves haven't ever been good paladins that I can remember. They couldn't be one at all in 1e/2e. And in 3e, that charisma penalty was kind of punishing for a Paladin. As for clerics... Well, in 3e they were as good as any other race at being a cleric, IMHO. I, personally, thought they made better Wizards than they did Clerics, but YMMV.

In 4e, dwarves make perfectly good Wisdom-primary clerics. They're decent with the armor types they can wear. They don't need to blow a healing power to heal themselves with a minor action. And that Wisdom bonus is far more important than any Charisma bonus they could have. In other words, they're at least as good at playing Cleric as elves are.

-O

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Coincidently, one of my players just made a Warforged Warden MC'd as a druid, reskinned as a treant. So, technically a treant who turns into a ...something, but we're treating it as a human who turns into a tree.

Okay, there is some handwaving going on, but still, WF as treant works fairly well.

I was thinking that a warforged barbarian would be cool, in a tongue-in-cheek way. I imagine that when he enters a rage, his eyes glow red, and he does that train whistle noise that you sometimes see a cartoon character do when angry.
Ƹ======Ʒ

 

[Akaiku]

...and they have exclusive access to two really massively good feats.

Not exclusive, Half-elfs can get any human feat a human can. They can also get a few of the elf feats, assuming that they don't key off the elven accuracy power.

 

[adam_antio]

Dwarves haven't ever been good paladins that I can remember. They couldn't be one at all in 1e/2e. And in 3e, that charisma penalty was kind of punishing for a Paladin. As for clerics... Well, in 3e they were as good as any other race at being a cleric, IMHO. I, personally, thought they made better Wizards than they did Clerics, but YMMV.

In 4e, dwarves make perfectly good Wisdom-primary clerics. They're decent with the armor types they can wear. They don't need to blow a healing power to heal themselves with a minor action. And that Wisdom bonus is far more important than any Charisma bonus they could have. In other words, they're at least as good at playing Cleric as elves are.

-O

I never said that now elves make better clerics than dwarves or viceversa. I said... what I said: dwarves are better druids and shamans than clerics, and it's obviously a restyle of this race. I have not said that they make weak clerics, but certanly they make much stronger druids or shamans.

In older editions, the dwarven's most powerful magic was clerics' one (in AD&D at most they could be clerics, and in 3.x they did better clerics than any other spellcaster class without any doubt), while now they excel as "primal casters" (druids and shamans). I'm not saying that this is wrong, I say simply that is different. And that's why "dwarves make as good/better primal characters than elves". Maybe, they make better primal characters than any other race (having the best scores, wis/con, for 2 of 4 classes, and a lot of features or feats that are awesome for the other classes, like dwarven weapon training for barbarians and wardens). From the dwarven fighter/rogue of AD&D, we are arrived to the dwarven shaman of D&D4. Well, it's ok to me. I mean, since I do not consider dwarves at all... ;P