Dwarves make as good/better primal characters than elves.

[DracoSuave]

I don't understand why archery-style rangers are suboptimal. A lot of optimization theory looks at the attributes, defenses, and then shuts their ears and goes 'LA LA LA I DO NOT NEED TO LISTEN BECAUSE I HAVE IT ALL FIGURE OUT.'

Here's a simple fact: Sometimes a bonus to AC that gets you out of danger is worth more than 5 extra hitpoints. If you have a build that centers around the concept of DGH (Don't Get Hit) then Toughness is a far less optimal feat than a feat that actually contributes to DGH, like, say, Defensive Mobility.

As well, the two-weapon fighting style isn't necessary for a bow user, because your mainhand weapon is your bow, and your off-hand weapon is the arrow you notch in it. And your damage is more without spending feats on Weapon Proficiency. You use your powers to avoid damage on their turn, and Defensive Mobility helps you avoid damage on -your- turn.

So, going along with that mentality, if you have a DGH build, then you're not going to want to go Shifter. Shifters are all about getting hit, going cah-razeh, and then kicking arse and taking names.

Longtooth Shifters are for Avengers. Elves are for Archery Rangers.

And Dwarves are great primal characters, and that fits with their origin. Primal is the magic of the world (read: Prime Material Plane for oldschoolers). Dwarves are products of the magic of the world. Elves are alien outsiders who decided to settle down once they decided they liked it here.

Backstory says: Dwarves are more likely to be primal than Elves.

 

[evilbob]

I'm still looking for a good race to play a paladin or a cleric... Their Str-based builds aren't as powerful as their non-Str based builds, but there's still no Wis-Cha race in the game! Devas were our only hope... And they all got transformed into Dr. Manhattan...

Seriously though, where are the Wis-Cha races? The poor divine classes have no love right now...

 

[DracoSuave]

Tieflings make -awesome- Cha-Paladins.

Just sayin'.

 

[evilbob]

Tieflings make -awesome- Cha-Paladins.

Just sayin'.

Really? Int is a dump-stat, though; is it their racial?

Half-elves don't make bad Cha-paladins at all either, but a straight-up Wis-Cha race is still sorely needed, especially for the two MADdest classes right out of the gate...

 

[adam_antio]

just to be in topic,

I my games I will allow switching int with dex for stalker spirit shamans, simply making them perfect for elves (and making a more credible concept of shaman); so, an elf has a more general aptitude in primal classes. And yes, a dwarf can be one of the best races for the abilities, but dwarves lack on mobility, wich is fundamental (especially for primals), while elves are the unique race with 7 in speed. Another HR might be to allow switching con with cha for guardian spirit shamans, but I'm not shure it could work. We don't have yet a cha/wis race... Anyway.

Shamans' int, perfect for devas, also seems to be a bit too similar to the draenei (or whatever is spelled) shamans in world of warcraft

 

[DracoSuave]

Really? Int is a dump-stat, though; is it their racial?

It's a combination of Bloodhunt + Infernal Wrath + (Firey Weapon+Hellfire Blood).

Paladins have a surprising amount of Fear powers, and a Charisma-based defender is the MOST likely to get Infernal Wrath to work for them of any character in the game.

Also, Bloodhunt is -amazing-.

 

[Danceofmasks]

As much as I love hellfire blood, I don't know about using it with a flaming weapon.
Those things have a +4 level bump ... one more level and you can get that +1 to hit & damage from a plain magic weapon.

And generally speaking, untyped damage > fire damage.

You always have the option of doing the "retrain shuffle" though ... e.g. Pick up that +2 weapon as level, switch hellfire blood for weapon focus ... reverse at level 7 or 8 when you get a +2 flaming ...

As for int being a dump stat, if you want any con at all, str is more of a dump stat than either of the reflex stats.
I mean really .. never going to get it high enough to qualify for weapon feats, taking both str & cha based powers is sub-optimal, you now have melee training (charisma) option, and you probably want some con for armor spec.

 

[Quartz]

In fact the classic races are still the best for some classes.
Humans are never going to be the best, but they are always viable.

This I see as a problem. Humans shouldn't be better but they should be equal best. Otherwise, why play a human? If you've got two of a certain class in a party and the non-human consistently outclasses the human, the player of the human is going to feel rather sore.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This I see as a problem. Humans shouldn't be better but they should be equal best. Otherwise, why play a human? If you've got two of a certain class in a party and the non-human consistently outclasses the human, the player of the human is going to feel rather sore.

Which is of course why humans have far and away the best racial traits, and they have exclusive access to two really massively good feats. There are some downsides, you get less stat boost mainly. After Dragonborn, Half-orc, and Shifters (which are really 2 races, so it isn't quite fair to compare) humans are the race with the most optimal options. They don't spring out as the obvious best choice, but their advantages are just good across the board and provide an undramatic but substantial benefit which is applicable in practically all situations (+1 to all NADs just works, all the time). The bonus at-will isn't always a huge benefit, but often it lets you use a slightly better power in a given situation. The extra skill is always nice to have. The extra feat at 1st level is probably giving you a very useful static bonus too.

 

[Danceofmasks]

This I see as a problem. Humans shouldn't be better but they should be equal best. Otherwise, why play a human? If you've got two of a certain class in a party and the non-human consistently outclasses the human, the player of the human is going to feel rather sore.

Some builds require a lot of feats to really get going.
If you're looking at charop to max your offensive ability, feats are often required to round out the character.

Take a druid, for instance.
A human can stick a 20 in wis, start in scale mail, and pick up implement expertise at 2nd.
Level by level, look at the respective offense, defense, DPR, whatever you want ... humans are awesome.

Dwarves, Elves, Shifters, whatever ... just try to build a better druid.

'cos when we're talking about optimum builds, being behind the human for 10 levels isn't optimum.