D&D 5E Dwellers on Shadow

[steeldragons]

This is an interesting perspective. So it's okay for the impressionable young kids to play murderous vagabonds who rifle through the pockets of the dead (not to mention their tombs)

Yes.

and summon monsters to slay their foes,

Well, I personally have never been a fan of "summoner" D&D "never have to do anything myself."

but the shadar-kai tendency to cut themselves is going to hurt our children?

I think it is something to look at and consider, yes.

I think there's a fundamental disconnect there.

Why, exactly? One is a fundmentally fantasy thing...the other has a legitimate "real world" application/connection.

I also think it's a bit condescending to think that D&D players are that easily influenced into bad behavior by monsters in the game. If anything, monsters reflect our own bad behavior and habits, rather than engendering them-

Exactly. You've just made my point, thank you. Those things should be "fantasy" not something easy to reflect into my own "real life."

there are plenty of seductresses out there; which came first, the seductress or the succubus?

The seductress of course...I fail to see how that improves or makes your point...?

I really don't want DnD to EVER exclude material because "think of the children!".

Due respect, and I DO[!], D&D is...or was ...a game for 10 and up...I began playing in the early 80s...prolly right around 81...I recall my mother asking me about the game and about "devils" and "demons"...I looks at her like SHE had 3 heads. "What? No. I mean, yeah. They're in the game...It's a game of make believe! nothing real here..." That's one thing..."No mom, [rolls eyes], we're not conjuring demons here..." not the same thing as "Ooooo lemme take after this rully kewl race I know about"

That's how we lost tons of awesome in 2e (demons, devils, etc). I'm okay with stuff that's actually too-extreme-for-kids bearing a warning label,

AS AM I!!!! But the "basic, standard" game thats supposed to be bringing NEW people into the D&D genre/game...not so much.

and I'm totally okay with any given group excluding any given game element, but changing the shadar-kai and removing their coolest element to avoid influencing the young'uns? I don't think we've even heard a complaint referencing them from any parents or anything (or if we have, I am not familiar with it).

And, wouldn't it make sense to "police ourselves" as "inappropriate for children" than to just put it out there fer everybody?!

Final thought on the matter: Cutters are gonna cut themselves until they get past the part of their lives where they feel they need to do so,

And that truth, in what way, justifies presenting a "superkewlz" race who does the exact same thing they're doing as "ok and kewl"?!

whether that is decades of loneliness later or after three weeks, when they discover a friend or piece of art or whatever that fills them with vivid emotion. Is it healthy? Probably not.

FINALLY! Thank you!

Do I endorse it? Nope.

Good to know, cuz it has sounded up until now...

But should we concern ourselves with the impact of the shadar-kai on the number of cutters out there?

YYYYEEEESSSSS!!!!!

Not unless someone can actually show a real connection.

Oh fer cryin' out loud...What, exactly woudl constitute a "real connection"? Do we need to wait for the "mom's" to be up ni arms to say "all these fkids have this in common"...or can we say, with a seasonable amount of ...ya know, reasonableness...that it is inappropriate?

OK, well let's leave it up to the smart folks at WotC...ugh...or not.

 

[1of3]

You're not helping your cause. You have an opionion, Jester's got another. You point of view does not become better by repeating it, nor by slicing Jester's post into miniscule pieces.

(I wonder, if that mini quote habit when enraged really is a Ersatzhandlung to ripping something apart.)

 

[steeldragons]

You're not helping your cause. You have an opionion, Jester's got another. You point of view does not become better by repeating it, nor by slicing Jester's post into miniscule pieces.

(I wonder, if that mini quote habit when enraged really is a Ersatzhandlung to ripping something apart.)

Well thanks so much...cuz I was SO hoping you would be helping my "cause"...which, I didn't realize I had??

What is an ersantz-whozzits? What does it mean?...or that it was a "habit" of mine...my bad. I'll make sure to keep my opinions to myself...Oh wait, there's still free speech in the inter-web world, isn't there?

Thanks for the two coppers. You are welcome to "ignore" me. Enjoy.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Gnomes? Uh, no. Shadar-Kai are human sized and there's nothing gnomish about them.

Ah ... goth elves with a piercing fetish.

 

[Hussar]

Ah ... goth elves with a piercing fetish.

That would probably be closer.

Drow by another name? Oh, no, these ones are masochists, not sadists.

First I ever heard of these things was in 4e, thought they were kinda cool, but, not really a big deal.

As far as the "who will think about the children" thing goes, I find it bizarre to worry about a minor playable race having a major impact but totally ignoring the fact that someone could be playing a cleric of an evil god of torture and destruction and that's perfectly acceptable. I mean, emo goth is bad but assassin or anti-paladin is fine? Seems a bit of a stretch.

 

[the Jester]

Why, exactly? One is a fundmentally fantasy thing...the other has a legitimate "real world" application/connection.

I have to disagree; I think that a monster's racial trait is inherently more likely to remain a strictly-fantasy element, and that, Tom Hanks-like, playing a character is far more likely to result in behavior that reflects the character's. Nor do I think killing people and rifling their pockets is all that fantastic compared to someone cutting him- or herself. Both happen in the real world.

I just don't see anything to worry about here. Obviously, we disagree.

Due respect, and I DO[!], D&D is...or was ...a game for 10 and up...I began playing in the early 80s...prolly right around 81...I recall my mother asking me about the game and about "devils" and "demons"...I looks at her like SHE had 3 heads. "What? No. I mean, yeah. They're in the game...It's a game of make believe! nothing real here..." That's one thing..."No mom, [rolls eyes], we're not conjuring demons here..." not the same thing as "Ooooo lemme take after this rully kewl race I know about"

I guess I just don't see why you would expect gamers to take after the shadar-kai they fight any more than they'd take after (f'rex) the pc rogue or barbarian. D&D players, as a rule, don't run around trying to pick pockets or attacking people whenever something makes them angry. (Stereotypes aside, we've prolly all seen those two pcs, though.)

And, wouldn't it make sense to "police ourselves" as "inappropriate for children" than to just put it out there fer everybody?!

Perhaps I just think kids are more sensible and resilient than that on the whole. I don't think they need to be shielded from the idea of a shadar-kai cutting himself; I could certainly see a cutter on tv or in a PG movie. I wouldn't expect the cutting to be glorified in any of those cases, and I really don't think the shadar-kai glorify it either; I think it reinforces their inherent tragedy.

And that truth, in what way, justifies presenting a "superkewlz" race who does the exact same thing they're doing as "ok and kewl"?!

But it doesn't need justification. If it's a cool element for the game, I'm all for throwing it in, at least in those games that want to include it.

Oh fer cryin' out loud...What, exactly woudl constitute a "real connection"? Do we need to wait for the "mom's" to be up ni arms to say "all these fkids have this in common"...or can we say, with a seasonable amount of ...ya know, reasonableness...that it is inappropriate?

More than "Something could happen, think of the children!".

I mean, nothing has happened yet. Shadar-kai have been in the game since 2003. That's a decade with no problem to solve, so why worry about inventing a solution?

I recognize that your concern is something that can't be addressed with the ol' "If you don't like it, don't use it" approach- you're worried about DnD's image- but with all due respect (and I do, too!), I think your concern is misplaced. Not only that, trying to appease people- parents and the like- who don't even play the game is a terrible error in approach IMHO. Watering down the game makes it less fun, at least for some gamers; doing so in order to avoid offending possibly offending people who don't spend money on the hobby anyway at the cost of possible sales from some who might doesn't look like a win to me.

 

[gyor]

According to a recent study, 90 percent of male teenagers and 50 percent of female teenagers watch porn, yet it has only had a minor effect on thier behavior. So its doubtful that Shadar-Kai will have any more effect.

 

[Klaus]

The self-cutting is, IMHO, completely irrelevant to the shadar-kai's identity. You can have them tattooed and wearing piercings on the art without once mentioning in the text that they cut themselves in order to feel.

 

[steeldragons]

Precisely, Klaus. It offers/adds nothing! Why is cutting in the text at all?

They're human or fey who are linked to the Plane of Shadow (or the Raven Queen) or whatever the flavor text is. Done.

"They need to harm themselves" is a bad message and needs to be scrapped...whether it's "to keep themselves in touch with their bodies so as not to be lost in shadow" or "to offset the despair and ennui of living in the Shadowfeld"...for ANY reason, is completely irrelevant. Does anyone at WotC have even a passing understanding of the psychology of cutting? It's not difficult...

Inflicting harm on themselves is a bad message, for any age really but particularly for a game that is going to be aiming itself at a [presumably] 10+ crowd. It has no place nor adds ANYthing to the shadar-kai as a race [available to PCs or not].

 

[Weather Report]

They do come off as a bit 90's-angst-apathy-pierced-tattoed-boy, but having said that, I do like the shadow fey trying to cover the world in eternal twilight action (a bit like Illithids).