E-Tools: Anyone Sharing Custom Files?

[Nylanfs]

I'm even more confused now.

PCGen distributed WOTC material in data files. At the time, you argued that this was Fair Use under Copyright Law. You say you still agree with this. But then you say that if someone where to do exactly the same thing, it would not be "fine". Which is it?

*IF* we believe that datasets are a Fair Use under copyright law then shouldn't someone be able to create an E:Tools dataset of WOTC material and call it Fair Use?

I realize that's a big IF and that if I feel that way but WOTC disagrees, my belief doesn't do me much good. I'm just trying to understand the issues.

Note: I was not privy to all the conversations but this is how I understand it to have happened.

Actually the original PCGen datasets for the splatbooks, Oriental Adventers, Forgotten Realms etc. were created under the impression that it would be okay under the Fair Use guidelines. Several attempts were made to contact WotC to verify but contact could never be made until GenCon '02. At that time Anthony Valterra said that "No we don't agree. Please remove the datasets in violation." To which Bryan said "Ok, is there anyway we can continue to distribute them." AV said "Well first become OGL compliant and then we can talk about it." Which was accomplished in Umm 42days? I think that's right. after that negotiations were opened with WotC to get the datasets back, after that it was a whirlwind of negiatiations which ended up with CMP being created, them getting the "priviledge" of fixing eTools and they purchased the rights to distribute datasets for ALL of WotC IP for both eTools and PCGen.

The main point is that while it may or maynot have been following the Fair Use guidelines, unless you have the money and time to go to court the injured party always wins.

 

[Kristian Serrano]

Denying a sale is not theft. I could stand outside a store and warn people away because the owners were terrorists, child molestors, or worse, Auburn fans . That would deny them a few sales, but would not be theft.

No, that's considered slander and/or libel, for which you could be rightfully sued, and the plaintiff would rightfully win. Unless, of course, it's proven to be true.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

No, that's considered slander and/or libel, for which you could be rightfully sued, and the plaintiff would rightfully win. Unless, of course, it's proven to be true.

In America, it does not have to be proven to be true. If the store decided to press charges on me, the burden would be on them to prove that I had slandered them - by proving they were not terrorists.

Anyway, I never said piracy was LEGAL, I just deny that it is theft.

 

[Zub]

To the Person who said look on Kazaa... Thanks for encouraging piracy. Real nice of you to direct people to take our hard work for free. I'll save the arguments against piracy, people have hashed them over and over, either people will or they won't steal. So I guess there is a third option, theft.

I don't use Kazaa - so I don't know what's out there. But I don't understand why CMP feels that the downloading any E-tools files from Kazaa is an infringement (Or as you put it - theft). If I created my own files based on WoTC closed content and posted them on Kazaa, is that theft? If I create my own files of OGC and posted them on kazaa is that theft as well? Is CMP the only entity able to publicly distribute e-tools data files legally?

Zub

 

[Kristian Serrano]

If I created my own files based on WoTC closed content and posted them on Kazaa, is that theft?

It's copyright violation and theft of intellectual property.

And in regards to CMP-made data being distributed, read your end-user license agreement.

 

[DaveStebbins]

If I created my own files based on WoTC closed content

You're OK here, personal use is one of the things allowed under copyright law.

and posted them on Kazaa, is that theft?

It is a violation of copyright law. Theft is debateable, but since CMP has the exclusive license to distribute WotC content, giving it to others who then have it without having needed to pay for it, you've certainly helped others steal.

If I create my own files of OGC

Again, personal use. This is fine.

and posted them on kazaa is that theft as well?

It is not necessarily theft, but it is a violation of copyright and thus illegal.

Is CMP the only entity able to publicly distribute e-tools data files legally?

They have the license, yes.

-Dave

 

[gregweller]

And I do just need to add a bit about why the whole "checking out books from the library is the same as downloading files on the internet" analogy is flawed.

When you borrow a book from the library, you are taking a physical copy. While you have it, no one else can use it. When you return it, one other person can borrow it. There are no laws that say you can't lend out a physical item.

But when you download eTools files you are making a copy of the files. It's not like when you download them you are "borrowing" them and the original gets erased so now you have the only copy. Copying decreases the value of the item for those who want to make money by selling legitimate copies.

You're leaving one piece out of the arguement, Eric. It has to do with the reason you're 'using' a book. When I check a book out of the library, I am doing it in order not to have to buy it. When I am done with the book, I return it to the library and my reason for borrowing that book is over, and I *will never* have to buy that book--and you could argue that I have deprived the writer of a legitimate sale. I will grant you, that if I were to download a file from KaZaa I would be doing it in order not to have to pay for it. Now, I might use that file for a longer period of time, but the end result is exactly the same: in both cases, I have used a service, in one case the library, in the other case KaZaa in order to get something I want without having to pay for it. I think the whole physical vs. virtual dichotomy is flawed. I will grant you that there is an issue of numbers--it is possible to distribute vast numbers of files--but the core activity is still the same. And please don't think that the publishing industry wouldn't like to put libraries out of business if they could think of a way to do it.

 

[SkidAce]

Didn't the books in the library get paid for?

That seems to be a slight difference between your examples.

edit - spelling

 

[Kristian Serrano]

You're leaving one piece out of the arguement, Eric. It has to do with the reason you're 'using' a book. When I check a book out of the library, I am doing it in order not to have to buy it. When I am done with the book, I return it to the library and my reason for borrowing that book is over, and I *will never* have to buy that book--and you could argue that I have deprived the writer of a legitimate sale. I will grant you, that if I were to download a file from KaZaa I would be doing it in order not to have to pay for it. Now, I might use that file for a longer period of time, but the end result is exactly the same: in both cases, I have used a service, in one case the library, in the other case KaZaa in order to get something I want without having to pay for it. I think the whole physical vs. virtual dichotomy is flawed. I will grant you that there is an issue of numbers--it is possible to distribute vast numbers of files--but the core activity is still the same. And please don't think that the publishing industry wouldn't like to put libraries out of business if they could think of a way to do it.

Libraries also have permission to loan books, and taxes pay for library services. No one has authority to dsitributed licensed software to millions over the internet, unless it is freeware or shareware.

The fact remains that CMP data sets and homemade WotC content data sets are not for redistribution, but for personal use only. If you make your own content that falls under the OGL, then feel free to distribute as much as you want.

 

[Vpenman]

Piracy is theft.

Most people work to make money. They may get some personal satisfaction from providing goods or services, but normally, they want and need to get money from their work. That money comes from selling those goods or services. Creating the goods or services is merely the means to an end -- getting the money they have earned and need.

If you could somehow take those goods and/or services from those who worked to create them, it wouldn't be the loss of the goods or services that would be most keenly felt, it would be the loss of money that would be most hurtful.

Similarly, if you could leave them with the goods or services, but take the money they earned from creating them, that would be the real hurt.

That is the hurt that piracy does.

It leaves money in your pocket that was earned by the effort and risks taken by someone else.

Piracy is not just illegal, it is also immoral. It robs people of the rightful rewards for their labors and enriches people for being dishonest.

Unfortunately, there are those who do not care how much harm they do to others as long as they come out ahead.

Victor