Pathfinder 1E E6 and pathfinder

[harpy]

Yes! E6 works perfectly fine with Pathfinder. In fact I'd say it works better than 3.5 because there are no "dead levels" in Pathfinder as there were in 3.5, so every level every class will get something new.

E6 is mainly a framework to build a campaign around, so the big issue is the GM figuring out what "epic" level feats are going to be available for characters that go beyond 6th level.

I was running an E6 campaign for awhile that was going well. The only reason it went on hiatus had to do with real life getting in the way. You can check out what we had going here.

 

[Lawngnome4hire]

My new campaign is going to be Pathfinder E8. I really like E6 and the ideas behind it, but I took a look at all the classes and a lot of them get major class defining abilities at 8th level and it would be a shame to miss out on them. Stopping at 8th level gives access to 4th level spells but I don't see a problem with that, there really aren't any 4th level spells that I would consider over powered or exceedingly difficult to deal with. 5th level spells is when things start to get broken. After all, with creative use of Major Creation you can have limitless gold, and with Magic Jar you can take over the world, or at least your local kingdom.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

My new campaign is going to be Pathfinder E8. I really like E6 and the ideas behind it, but I took a look at all the classes and a lot of them get major class defining abilities at 8th level and it would be a shame to miss out on them.

That's what I was going to post.

Admittedly, my experience with PF is pretty limited so far, but the rules seem to set up 7th and 8th levels as the place where classes get some neat tricks, so stopping just before that might cause your players to miss out.

 

[Kaisoku]

You could give the class abilities normally gained at 7th and 8th level as special "epic" (ie, must be 6th level) feats. That way you keep the spirit of E6 by keeping the BAB, Saves, spells, etc, at 6th level... but still open up some of the class defining abilities.

A lot of the first couple levels of PrCs could be done this way as well (since most start qualifying at 7th+).

 

[Lawngnome4hire]

You could give the class abilities normally gained at 7th and 8th level as special "epic" (ie, must be 6th level) feats. That way you keep the spirit of E6 by keeping the BAB, Saves, spells, etc, at 6th level... but still open up some of the class defining abilities.

We're talking about doing this and leaving things at 6th level. We also need to come up with some capstone feats for the APG classes, and I would like a 2nd capstone feat for each class to give a little variety and customization.

 

[VanceMadrox]

So that said, what are the relative advantages of E6 vs E8?

For E6 it seems to be slightly easier prep work and keeping 4th level spells out of PC hands.

For E8 meanwhile, it seems to be a more logical breakpoint for most Pathfinder classes.

Does E8 really not keep the "spirit of E6"?


A few points of comparison to consider:

BaB: It's a 2 point difference for all but ½ BaB classes. Some people may not like the extra +2 to hit but I think the biggest issue here is ¾ BaB classes getting an extra iterative attack. This is really a matter of personal preference. Advantage: Tie

Break point: As has been pointed out in Pathfinder 8th level is a better break point for a lot of classes. Barbarians get damage reduction at 7, Rogues get improved uncanny Dodge. Domains and Arcane Schools vary on when they get their last powers. In E6 this could cause people to shy away from ones that don’t get powers till 8th level. In E8 it’s a non-issue. Sure you can make such things EPIC feats but for ease of use, E8 works better here. Advantage: E8.

Hit Points: 2 levels of hit points matter more than 2 levels of BaB and saves. At 8th level characters can have 70+ HP. I can understand the argument for keeping HP more reasonable. Advantage: E6

Leadership: This really depends on whether you like Leadership or not. By RAW Leadership is not available in E6 and it is in E8. This can be fixed easily by making it an EPIC feat but it still’s something to consider though ultimately a matter of preference: Advantage: Tie

Prep time: E6 keeps things a little lower powered so of course prepping is easier. It may only be a 2 level difference but I have seen from experience that 1st level Orcs out of the Bestiary are no challenege for 8th level characters. They’re not much challenege for 6th level ones either mind you but if they get lucky they’re much more likely to take 1 out. This may really just be because of the more HP though. And if you’re a GM who doesn’t mind throwing a few class levels on something then it’s not much difference. There’s plenty of non-humanoid monsters that can still be used straight out of the book. Advantage: E6

Rules ease: A lot of people who run E6 seem to use the lean up approach and grant a lot of abilities available to regular 7th and 8th level characters as feats. Overall it seems like more work to create EPIC feats for everything you do want instead of playing E* and removing what you don’t. Advantage: E8

Saves: The only difference between 6th and 8th level is 1 point in a class’s good saves. Not a big issue. Advantage: Tie

Setting: In E6 you can create a sandbox world and 1st level characters mostly have a chance to successfully run away from anything. In E8 this is less true. Also the difference between 1st and 6th levels humans is less than that between 1st and 8th and overall seems more believable. To me it seems that in an E6 world you can get away with having most people be 1st level but for E8 it makes more sense if the average person is 2nd or 3rd level. Not a huge issue but something to consider. A matter of personal preference once again: Advantage : tie

Spells: A lot of people seem to point out higher level spells as something that complicates things and makes caster too powerful at higher levels. Personally with a few exceptions I don’t see an issue with most 4th level spells. There’s also lesser caster to consider. In E8 Alchemists, Bards, Inquisitors, and Summoners get 3rd level spells, in E6 they don’t. Looking on the lists I don’t see a lot of problematical spells here either. Advantage: E6 but only slightly.

Any thoughts? Anyone actually try both E6 and E8? If so how were your experiences with both?

 

[Horus Greylocke]

I actually have a question about the xp it takes to get a new feat in PF E6.


In E6 for 3.5, it's 5000 xp, right? Well, in 3.5 it takes 6000 xp to go from 6th to 7th, where as in PFRPG, it takes 12000. Not to mention that characters in PF level slower. A CR 6 encounter in 3.5 is worth 1800, or 450 xp ea for a 4 person party. In PF, that number is 2400, or 600 xp/person. So while the number of xp to get to 7th doubled, the average xp per character for a APL equal encounter doesn't. In essence, Paizo took the ol' 13.333 encounters to level equation and brought it up to around 20 encounters.
Should xp for a new feat in PF E6 stay at 5000, should it be 6600 xp ( which is based off of around 11 encounters, the amount 3.5 E6 xp/feat breaks down to), or should it be 10,000, which is double, just like PF xp to 7th is double the old 3.5?


Gods, I hope that made any sense whatsoever. I'm just trying to find that sweet spot number for xp to award a new feat. I'm actually more interested in E8 for PF, but I can figure that number out from what E6 should be (which is double whatever it is for E6).
Thanks.

 

[Lawngnome4hire]

I'm pretty sure Pathfinder didn't increase the exp needed to level. What they did do is give you 3 different speeds to choose from, the fast track being the same as 3.5.

 

[Horus Greylocke]

I'm pretty sure Pathfinder didn't increase the exp needed to level. What they did do is give you 3 different speeds to choose from, the fast track being the same as 3.5.

Actually, PF fasttrack xp is slightly different than 3.5. Some of the levels take more, 6th to 7th being one of them. Either way, I was thinking more along the lines of the medium track, since I don't want to fast track my players. The point is to linger in the sweet spot, or in this case, hit it and stay there.