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E6, item creation, and balance issue

Quartz

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For those of you who play E6 or E8, how do you balance against the wizard with Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand who crafts himself a Belt of Magnificence +4 (one stat boost at a time, of course) and umpteen wands and sundry items? Sure he'll be behind on feats, but who cares when you've got fully charged wands of Fireball, Lightning bolt, and more? In normal D20, the other characters go up in levels and Minor Globe of Invulnerability takes care of the wand issue so it's self-balancing.
 

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It hasn't come up in my game, but I figured if it did I'd actually use the system from Mystic Eye Games book: The Artificer's Handbook.

You can read a review here:
http://www.d20zines.com/v7/node/657
http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2010781
http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2010760

There's a sort of an idea what you can expect from it here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=35741

I picked up the pdf version of it, but it doesn't look like it's hard to find in print still.

I will note that it's a bit of a fiddly thing. You're not really going to sit down and whip out the item in a couple of minutes. I've got no idea how that compares to the default system, since I've never played a wizard/sorcerer in D&D (and don't ever plan to).

I have a love/hate thing with rules. I like some consistency to them and like a decent foundation, but I really dislike having to _deal_ with them in actual play. So something like Unusual Core Classes: Spellweaver and The Artificer's Handbook appeal to me because they present a way to handle something consistently and bring in things from other sources and still have everything on a relatively level playing field.

At one time I really liked Elements of Magic. However, EoM falls down because it takes too much up front work to get the whole magic system of D&D converted over, there's too many variations possible within the magic, and some spells are difficult to recreate.

That's where the hate thing with rules comes in: When I sit down to play, I just want 'em to disappear as much as possible.

The Spellweaver class from Misfit Studios offers a lot of the same flexibility that EoM does, in a much tidier rules package, and goes the additional step of actually telling me what the SRD spells are worth using the Spellweaver system.

The Artificer's Handbook has a sample of Wonderous Items (50 items A-C but no Belt of Magnificence that I saw) and a number of other appendixes to help make using the system easier.

So far, I havent' seen anything come close to the Aritficer's Handbook in terms of what it does. It's not ideal because it does require more fiddling than I tend to want, but I really do like the potential consistency it brings to the table.

Of course, in 20 years of playing I've only seen the need for magic item creation rules come up a couple of times. So I don't have much practical experience with that side of things.

I'll also note that the downside of using the Artificer's Handbook is that it isn't a core book. This could be a dealbreaker for some.
 
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Quartz said:
For those of you who play E6 or E8, how do you balance against the wizard with Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand who crafts himself a Belt of Magnificence +4 (one stat boost at a time, of course) and umpteen wands and sundry items? Sure he'll be behind on feats, but who cares when you've got fully charged wands of Fireball, Lightning bolt, and more? In normal D20, the other characters go up in levels and Minor Globe of Invulnerability takes care of the wand issue so it's self-balancing.

What are the prequs? in E6 the only stat booster avalible is Gauntlets of Ogre strength, and they are limited to +2. All the other stat boost items have caster level 8.

Wands are a different issue, although treasure will be lower in an E6 game, a few 3rd level wands would be possible. One solution would be to limit wands to only 1st and 2nd level spells. A wand of web will still stop an army, but it won't wipe it out.

I'll have to let someone else answer for e8.

edit: globe of invulribility? really? they are immoble and small. What stops wands from being supreme is the high cost for low DC, and bad SR pentration. Also, increasing the damage is really expensive 2250 per D6? ick.
 
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Quartz said:
For those of you who play E6 or E8, how do you balance against the wizard with Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand who crafts himself a Belt of Magnificence +4 (one stat boost at a time, of course) and umpteen wands and sundry items? Sure he'll be behind on feats, but who cares when you've got fully charged wands of Fireball, Lightning bolt, and more?

Let me start by saying that I have not actually tried E6 yet, but we will be using it in a month or so. That being said, they should not be able to manage anything greater then +2 as far as I can tell, and I had already added an additional "level" of requirements for magic items if you will. The first time they try to make a magic weapon for instance it just makes a MW weapon "magic"; in other words they do not get a magical plus yet (so +0 magic if you will). It allows them to hit creatures that require a magic weapon, but the only bonus they get is the +1 for it being MW in the first place.

As far as wands go I will admit that I saw the possibility of abuse there, but had not tried to come up with a solution yet. Off the top of my head the previous poster had a good idea about limiting it to up to 2nd level spells. Since the entire level process has been reduced, I do not see a problem with reducing the power level of feats as well. So divide create wand into create wand I and create wand II or just limit wands to just first level spells and say you need create staff to allow 3rd level spell access. Other things you could consider would be: increasing cost, adding rare components or just say that a caster can only make and posses one wand (or however many you wish to allow) at a time. You could also reduce the number of total charges a wand could hold to 25 or even 10.

Good luck with it in any case.
 

Scurvy Platypus said:
Of course, in 20 years of playing I've only seen the need for magic item creation rules come up a couple of times. So I don't have much practical experience with that side of things.

Wizards in your campaigns may have been missing out on a lot. Item creation goes a long way to solving the problem of the 15-minute day.


Evilhalfling said:
edit: globe of invulribility? really? they are immoble and small. What stops wands from being supreme is the high cost for low DC, and bad SR pentration. Also, increasing the damage is really expensive 2250 per D6? ick.

In E6, your Wand of Fireballs is doing 6d6 (20 hp or 10 hp on a save) per round in a large area at range and has 50 charges. This vastly outperforms the fighter, even one with Cleave and Great Cleave and a reach weapon. And in comparison the archer is completely pathetic.
 

In E6, your Wand of Fireballs is doing 6d6 (20 hp or 10 hp on a save) per round in a large area at range and has 50 charges. This vastly outperforms the fighter, even one with Cleave and Great Cleave and a reach weapon. And in comparison the archer is completely pathetic.

Right, I agreed that 3rd level wands are a problem for e6. My comments on wand limitations are for a normal game. Actually they only apply to wands used on adventures. If you use a wand of FB against an low level army, the army loses. It would change the whole nature of warfare. So you either need to rething warfare, or explain why it does not happen. We have had lots of threads on reasons why this does not occur.
 

Quartz said:
Wizards in your campaigns may have been missing out on a lot. Item creation goes a long way to solving the problem of the 15-minute day.

I've heard about this "15-minute day" thing, before but I'm not entirely clear on it. I've only been playing D&D/d20 for a couple of years so... sorry.

I do know that in the game I'm running, there's no problem with casters doing stuff. First, all of 'em are casters of a sort. The casters all use Energy points to power their spells, and they come equipped with magitech weapons as well. One fellow is fond of using his Sun Blade, which is basically a sword made out of magic energy. A lot of the bits (like the Sun Blade) have a duration that's measured as a "scene" rather than "[x] rounds per [whatever]".

I'm running a game that's derived from BESMd20, so it could be that I've simply sidestepped any kind of issues.

As for regular D&D, I personally wouldn't ever play a regular caster. They looked too fiddly to me, and 20 years has taught me that a GM is always going to be looking to nerf the caster. So unless it's something like a Dragon Shaman (which I really enjoyed playing) I'm not even going to consider some sort of magicy character.

And yes, the GM spent a bunch of time trying to nerf me despite people's claims online about how "useless" a Dragon Shaman is. *shrug*
 

Just a thought, but what if wands had a recharge time, just like a dragon's breath weapon? Say of 1d4 + spell level rounds? Or simply the spell level. So you could use your Wand of Magic Missiles every round, but your Wand of Fireballs only every 3 rounds. Players might then simply have 3 Wands, but a GM can curtail this by restricting the time available for item creation.
 

For me, I do a few things with magic in my E6 campaign. First, I work with the recharging magic system from the SRD (or Unearthed Arcana). I find it works wonders in E6! [sblock=why I enjoy recharging magic]Spellcasters can play all day, but they have to work a lot more with tactics. If you cast fireball now, you lose access to all your third level spells for a while... sometimes long enough that the fight is over! And it's a blast to watch the healers decide if they want to cast their best heal now to save the fighter... or cast a lower level one and save the greater for a sudden emergency xD [/sblock]
With that in mind, I treat scrolls as if you had cast the spell from memory, recharge-wise... if you cast fireball from a scroll, all of your third level spells go on cooldown, as if you had cast it from memory.
As to wands? Honestly, it hasn't really come up... I'm usually the guy who runs a wizard, so right now they have a warmage, and he doesn't care as much about wands (plus, nobody has the cash for one yet, they're only like level 2).
I've been thinking about it, and I can see myself running it one of three ways, listed in order of most simple to most complex.
[sblock=way1] 1) wands work as normal, 50 charges, normal save DC. You get the advantage of simplicity, plus the spellcasters are happy... but again, a wand of fireball wipes the floor with everyone else.[/sblock]
[sblock=way2] 2) wands work almost as normal, 50 charges, any spell save DC starts at 5, not 10. So, a wand of fireballs is DC 5 +3 (spell level) +1 (int) for a 9, and a wand of sleep is DC 6. Makes wands easy to resist... against a critter with the right save bonuses, almost every save will be a successful resist, and many poor saves will be successes as well. Heck, with no penalties or modifiers, you have a guaranteed better than even chance of saving against even the most powerful of wands. Ticks off the offensive spellcasters, makes everyone else kinda happy with it. [/sblock]
[sblock=way3] 3) Magic wands work on a channeling basis: a wand of fireballs lets you cast fireballs, as long as you expend your third level spell slot for it. Saves are as normal for a wand, not for your spell. GM's call if wands have 50 charges or unlimited, since you basically don't get much benefit from them except versatility. You expend a wand charge (each time you channel magic through the wand, it wears a little of the magic down inside the item) and an appropriate spell slot, and the spell is cast (save DCs as for a wand, as normal). Benefit to this is, everyone's happy... spellcasters don't get screwed over with worthless wands, and fighters know that the wizard's spell slots will run down eventually... it's just like they had the same spell memorized (but with a lower save DC).
In E6 without recharging magic, it's simple. One 3rd level spell burned + one wand charge expended, equals one use of the wand. Lets you convert your fly or whatever into the fireball the wand has, without significantly increasing your power per day. [/sblock]
[sblock=3rd style, and how it affects recharging magic] In recharging magic, this system triggers the cooldown of that level of spell, as if you had cast a spell of the level of the wand. I plan on reducing spell recharge times incurred by activating a wand. At 1st level, 1st level wands cause the full recharge time of casting a 1st level spell, as you gain a new spell level. For a wizard, this means that at third level, 1st level wands cause 1st level spells to be on cooldown for 1d3 rounds. At 5th level, 1st level wands cause 1st level spells to be on cooldown for 1 round. At 3rd level, 2nd level wands cause full 2nd level spell cooldown as normal. At 5th level, 2nd level wands take 1d3 rounds to recharge. 3rd level wands always incur the normal 3rd level spell recharge. Lore-wise, this means that as the wizard grows in experience, he can more efficiently pull magic from a wand. Game-wise, this means the wizard will almost always at least be able to pull off a magic missile if he has a wand of magic missile, if his 2nd and 3rd level spells are on recharge. Not too much more damaging than a magic crossbow, and much more wizardly. In this system, spellcasting level of wands cannot rise above 6th level, even if you can cast spells as a higher level character (for example, having a feat to increase your caster level for fire spells by +1 would affect your spells but not allow you to create a 7th level fireball). The main issue with slowing down recharge time is that you could, theoretically, buy a 5th level wand of magic missile and use it every other round, for 3d4+3 points of auto-hitting damage... however, that's about the damage of crossbow over 2 rounds, if you hit every round. If you crit, you deal more damage... if you miss, you deal less. I feel it balances out and keeps wizards wizardly. [/sblock]
[sblock=Endless wands] 4) and this is something that you can use WITH normal wand rules, if you so desire... wands function as the eternal wands in MIC (use the wand 2 per day, but infinite charges) with a bump to 3 per day use of the wand (2 per day seems weak to me). [/sblock]
 
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