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E6: The Game Inside D&D (new revision)

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Shazman

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Your group must not be powergamers then. Lots of players would say I'll play a half-orc for the strength bonus. I can always get feats later.
 

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Ry

Explorer
That's a fair assessment; traditionally, my guys get their kicks being in-character commando/engineers rather than by tweaking stats. They still choose solid builds, but they don't, say, go to Wizards.com and look for 1337/m0zt br0k3n bildz. =)
 

rycanada said:
That's a fair assessment; traditionally, my guys get their kicks being in-character commando/engineers rather than by tweaking stats. They still choose solid builds, but they don't, say, go to Wizards.com and look for 1337/m0zt br0k3n bildz. =)

Ryan, which build do you prefer for E6? In general? I personally think a carefully-designed rogue would have my use, though Clerics (as they are in the classic game), are worthy of love for their Spellfeats, and the fact that they remain extremely useful in the service of their respective deities and functions (thanks to the above spellfeats).
 

jonrog1

First Post
I love this, and not just because I was thinking of some way to do this with spellcasting classes only, to create an adjustable "FX level" for a campaign. And you did it better and faster. @&^@^$%

This may work particularly well with True20, as character advancement is done solely with feats in that system. Only three classes, and you assemble feat chains to create heroic "paths" similar to D&D classes.

I still could use a little more clarification on converting creature abilites over to feats, but I'm going to post E6 up over at the True20 boards if you're okay with it. They're a canny, very positive bunch over there.
 

Ry

Explorer
Favorite class: Right now I'm leaning towards Paladin; there's already great feats for Extra Smiting, Extra Turning, and lots of cool stuff to spend your turn attempts on.
 

Koewn

First Post
Shazman said:
Your group must not be powergamers then. Lots of players would say I'll play a half-orc for the strength bonus. I can always get feats later.

I agree with that.

Consider the Half-Orc as a Fighter.

+2 STR
-2 INT
-2 CHA

It would take 20,000 XP (both ability feats for INT/CHA) to bring that up to +0, and then another 10000 XP for STR:

+4 STR
+0 INT
+0 CHA

whereas the Human can only get +2 STR, ever, with 10k XP.

(I'm ignoring the 4th level ability boost here)

Unless you're making a build with some serious multiple ability requirements, you're almost always better off choosing a race that has a +2 to a primary stat.

Heck, I'd go Dwarf for the extra 12 HP at 6th level from obtaining +4 CON. That's like an entire (good) hit die, for anybody that's not a CHA based caster.

For savvy gamers (I won't even go as far as saying power-gamers here; most players would not choose a Half-Orc for a bard, for example) optimal race/class selection isn't a mere afterthought in a game that's open to all the choices in the SRD. Add into that the fact you can "buy" your way out of the ability penalties (at least to +0), it starts becoming a no-brainer.

You don't see that in standard DND since the ability boosts are few and far between.

I don't know how it would be fixed, or if it needs fixed. Turning the notion that "human extra feat is the best!" (at least in my school of char-creation) is a bit of an odd thing.

Going "dwarf" makes CHA the ultimate dump stat. Who wouldn't give up -2 CHA for 12 HP, if you don't need CHA? It's only a -1 to CHA skills, for most people.

Anyway.
 

joela

First Post
True20

jonrog1 said:
...but I'm going to post E6 up over at the True20 boards if you're okay with it. They're a canny, very positive bunch over there.

Could you post the link to the post when you do it? Thanks!
 

DogBackward

First Post
While not neccessarily a fix, per se, I use a different set of stats in my human only games. And I have lots of them... it seems to work really well. Instead of set stats, I like to model human diversity and adaptability by giving a set of options for all cultures and groups.

[sblock=Modified Humans]At first level, a human may choose any two of the following abilities. This replaces the normal Bonus Feat and Bonus Skill Points gained at each level. All other attributes of the human race remain the same.

Ability Points
The human gains +2 ability points to spread among their abilties, using the standard point-buy costs. This means that while you could shore up a low score with +2, you could only add +1 to a 14 or 15, and you can't add anything to a 16 or higher.

Bonus Feat
The human gains a bonus feat, which may be any single feat for which you meets the prerequisites. Alternately, you may choose to "save" this bonus feat, taking it at any level after 1st, using your increased abilieties to allow you to qualify for higher-power feats.

Diluted Blood
Choose elf or orc blood, or any other race that has a half-human version. You are considered to be a member of this race for the purposes of prerequisites for feats and abilities, prestige classes, magic items, and anything else that works only for the chosen race. While you do not have much blood, you have just enough in your distant past.

Skill Training
Choose any two skills that are not class skills for you. These skills are now considered class skills for all of your classes from now on.

Skill Points
You count your Intelligence bonus as 2 points higher for the purpose of determining your skill poitns at first level and beyond.

Environmental Focus
Choose one of the environments listed below. You gain a +4 bonus to Fortitude saves and Survival checks made to avoid environmental hazards in the chosen environment, such as inclement weather, heat or cold, or other natural dangers.

Favored Class
Choose any one class. This class is considered a favored class for you. This is in addition to the human's normal ability to ignore their highest level class when determining XP penalties, essentially giving you two favored classes; your highest class and the class you choose for this ability. If the favored class gained from this ability is also your highest-level class, then the next highest level class you have ceases to apply instead.[/sblock]
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
jonrog1 said:
I still could use a little more clarification on converting creature abilites over to feats, but I'm going to post E6 up over at the True20 boards if you're okay with it. They're a canny, very positive bunch over there.

Why, thank you! :)

More seriously, E6 may tempt me from True20 into D&D again, as it fixes the problems I had with D&D, even if True20 is easier for sci-fi/modern settings.

(Oh, and in my opinion, the True20 boards are the place to be if you want to see people hashing out issues with d20 and trying to evolve it to the next level. I know that at least a few mechanics from Star Wars Saga Edition appear to have been cribbed from the board.)
 

Ry

Explorer
I'm hoping to get that .pdf from Nifelhein soon. Once I get that, I'll do what I did last week and ask for a threadlock and I'll repost. When I re-post, I'm going to post a separate thread for the discussion of rebalancing existing D&D elements for E6 purposes, but try to bring adding feats to E6 back into the main discussion thread. I'd like to move the core discussion from "hey, what's E6?" to "hey, what can we make with E6?"

But before we get to that does anyone have other suggestions for what needs to go into the FAQ, or the rest of the document?
 

Ry

Explorer
I'd love to see happy fun time cross-posting! But put a link here - I usually keep to my subscribed list and rarely have any idea what's happening on boards in general.
 

rycanada said:
I'm hoping to get that .pdf from Nifelhein soon. Once I get that, I'll do what I did last week and ask for a threadlock and I'll repost. When I re-post, I'm going to post a separate thread for the discussion of rebalancing existing D&D elements for E6 purposes, but try to bring adding feats to E6 back into the main discussion thread. I'd like to move the core discussion from "hey, what's E6?" to "hey, what can we make with E6?"

But before we get to that does anyone have other suggestions for what needs to go into the FAQ, or the rest of the document?

Sample E6 charsheets for both conventional AND unconventional character classes, at 6th pre-feats, and at 6th post-feats. That would help people get more into the mindset of E6, and it answers that question in the quote. What can we do with E6?

Also, monsters that would be serious business at E6, adjusted for E6, would work wonders too.

Edit: Am I saying E6 enough?

E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6E6 :D :D
 
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Shazman

First Post
Yeah some good iconic mosnters past say CR8 that are toned down for E6 would be nice. Something like a dragon, a beholder, a lich, and maybe a giant of some kind.
 

WhatGravitas

Explorer
rycanada said:
I want to hear all about AE7, honestly. I've got AE and I thought there would be issues (quickling faen unfettered builds, sorcerous blast-heavy magisters) but if they don't materialize that would be fantastic.
Sorcerous blast-heavy magisters and unfettered builds? What issues do you mean (specifically)?

Concerning the unfettered quicklings:
Well, 7th-level gives them +3 AC bonus by class, which about makes up for the restriction to light armour (granted, they're a bit better, due to the higher max. Dex-bonus). While they're ahead of most ACs due to the parry, they still suffer from the d8 as HD and on 7th, their Sneak Attack is only +1d6. They're still very good light fighters, but I doubt they'll outshine anyone.

Concerning the magister:
Granted, sorcerous blast is very good, but even on 7th, a magister with Int 18+ will not churn out more than 6 of them per day (by weaving down the 4th-level slots). A dedicated evoker wizard on 6th can already toss 4 fireballs a day.
The big benefit of the sorcerous blast (variable damage type) isn't that big, because on 7th, you see much less resistances or immunities - this aspect only comes into play later.

And the power of spell-templates and the Modify Spell-feat? Well, ladening is a still a huge cost, especially if you only have so many slots, and the various other templates need a costly material component worth 25+ gp. On higher level, that's basically a non-cost, but when facing encounters around CR 5-6, your average treasure is about 2,000 gp, meaning it's 500 gp per party member - blowing up components worth about 5% of your personal treasure isn't that cool.

If you now consider that all classes in AE are a bit more durable (higher HD, esp. the frailer ones), it becomes much less scary - or is about on par with the power of a D&D wizard chucking fireballs, but without the combat-ending power of colour spray, black tentacles or the world-altering powers of scrying or lesser planar binding (since this stuff is higher level stuff in AE).

On another note: Many of my players (i.e. all ;) ) dislike the fact that after 6th (or 7th), you won't get any hp without the Toughness feat. I'm musing about this rule:

For every feat gained after 6th level, your max. hp increases by +1 (if a non-full BAB-class).

Even with a load of feats, this increase isn't that big, thus still preserve the feeling of being vulnerable, but show some accumulating "sturdiness".
 

green slime

First Post
But those power gamers are relying on being able to keep playing E6 well beyond 6th level. Where in fact, the DM may well pull the plug at 6th+3, which lessens the impact of the powergaming.
 

Koewn

First Post
green slime said:
But those power gamers are relying on being able to keep playing E6 well beyond 6th level. Where in fact, the DM may well pull the plug at 6th+3, which lessens the impact of the powergaming.

True, but much of the point of E6 is to go far beyond 6th without moving the general power level past "stupendous".

On another note....

Ry, what do you think about little sub-chapters at the end of the E6 document describing either "how to" or "ramifications of" using other OGL systems with E6?

I was thinking about a little "here's how True Sorcery plays out" chapter.
 

Ry

Explorer
I'd love to see it, but as I haven't run such games I'm not the one to write it. But if someone ran such a game I'd love to include their take.
 

green slime

First Post
Koewn said:
True, but much of the point of E6 is to go far beyond 6th without moving the general power level past "stupendous".

Yes, but any system is open to abuse by players willing to spend time, effort, and forethought. A quirk of the E6 system is just that all characters accumulate loads of feats given a lengthy campaign. This has two effects:

It cheapens the fighter's 4 feat advantage (1st, 2nd, 4th, and 6th). Eventually, he'll run out of interesting fighter feats.
Humans may be less popular, due to the superior abilities of the demihumans.

Both of these issues are only issues within the context of people min-maxing/powergaming.

There are various ways with which a DM can tackle this issue, and I suggest that the E6 document state the issue, and provide various ideas how to circumvent it, without actually doing away with it. Because correcting it is adding probably going to add just more tweaking to the core rules.
 


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