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E6: The Game Inside D&D (new revision)

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Kunimatyu

First Post
Oddly, I'm less excited about E6 in True20, mostly because I can think of a couple immediate problem spots, and the strict feat categories (Warrior, Expert, Adept) with few prerequisites are harder to parse out.
 

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mfrench

First Post
green slime said:
It cheapens the fighter's 4 feat advantage (1st, 2nd, 4th, and 6th). Eventually, he'll run out of interesting fighter feats.

People say this frequently, but I have a hard time believing it. One of the premises of the system is to introduce lots of new feats. Just looking at the Complete series, there are great tactical feats (Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, Elusive Target), each with pre-reqs to take. Most people won't have the +6 BAB to ever qualify. You can round out a guy with Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Improved Init. I had a melee guy do this in one of my games: he got very versatile, so that in any situation he had something to do, even if the situation's parameters meant that his 'main shtick' wasn't appropriate.

If a player wants to be a fighter, couldn't a willing DM create or dig up other feats that suit the player's vision? A fighter remains the only option for wearing heavy armor and being in melee without being held to a strict code of ethics. He also remains the only class with tower field proficieny (others can get it, but then the fighter's another feat ahead, isn't he?).
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
mfrench said:
People say this frequently, but I have a hard time believing it. One of the premises of the system is to introduce lots of new feats. Just looking at the Complete series, there are great tactical feats (Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, Elusive Target), each with pre-reqs to take. Most people won't have the +6 BAB to ever qualify. You can round out a guy with Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Improved Init. I had a melee guy do this in one of my games: he got very versatile, so that in any situation he had something to do, even if the situation's parameters meant that his 'main shtick' wasn't appropriate.

If a player wants to be a fighter, couldn't a willing DM create or dig up other feats that suit the player's vision? A fighter remains the only option for wearing heavy armor and being in melee without being held to a strict code of ethics. He also remains the only class with tower field proficieny (others can get it, but then the fighter's another feat ahead, isn't he?).

I really don't see how it'd be difficult for a Barbarian, say, to pick up all the feats you've described in a few "levels" after 6th. Giving the fighter Improved Crit + Greater Focus/Spec with prereq fighter level 6 -should- fix the problem, though.
 

Ry

Explorer
Right, the half-orc barbarian can get them eventually, but the human fighter can get them first. I'm still not convinced the human or the fighter needs to get any special attention.
 

Koewn

First Post
Ry, I've proposed a one-shot to my group, we'll see how it goes over. E6 with a slightly simplified True Sorcery, in a couple months.

They're about 10 1/2th level or so now.

I'm going to whip up a bunch of pregens; and I'm wanting to present that same level of ability, in so much as it's possible. An earlier post suggested 5 feats=1 CR, I'm looking at about a 4.5 CR increase over 6th level, so 22 feats?

Sound right?

I'm probably looking at 3 players for this one, and going with the tried and true "big bad guy plus lots of mooks" method. Bit of a dungeon crawl, probably.

So, with mooks...should the assumption be that X amount of 1st level mooks being a problem for a 3 person party at 6th be the same amount of problem at E6+22?

(The current party is all half/quarter casters, so the lack of big-boom spells is already something I am used to, I'm mainly speaking melee.)
 

Ry

Explorer
You will need more mooks, or better tactics for the same mooks. I'd say double the number you would think of for a 6th level party; with 20 feats (especially gained all at once rather than organically in game), I wouldn't be surprised if you see Reaching Raging Whirlwind Great Cleaving with a glaive.

Also, show off other things you can manage along with the mooks; give the mooks higher ground, roll barrels full of burning oil down at them, and try to take advantage of range.
 

wraith428

First Post
New Spells

Have you give any thought to how classes with dedicated/restricted spell lists can advance their spell knowledge. I'm talking Warmage, Dread Necromancer and Beguiler types. You presented a feat to expand known spells for Sorcerer types, but was wondering your thoughts for these classes?
 

DogBackward

First Post
Just allow them to take the same feat as the Sorceror, but restrict their spells known. Beguilers get Enchantment and Illusion, Warmages get Conjuration and Evocation, and Dread Necromancers get Necromancy. Easy.
 

Ry

Explorer
Dog's suggestion sounds good to me.

Nifelhein, FYI another guy sent me a .pdf version of the file, I'll post it here after I get a chance to do some revisions on it.
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
DogBackward said:
Just allow them to take the same feat as the Sorceror, but restrict their spells known. Beguilers get Enchantment and Illusion, Warmages get Conjuration and Evocation, and Dread Necromancers get Necromancy. Easy.

I'd agree, though I'd restrict warmages to Evocation, since Conjuration includes teleportation and summoning as well.
 


Nifelhein

First Post
rycanada said:
Dog's suggestion sounds good to me.

Nifelhein, FYI another guy sent me a .pdf version of the file, I'll post it here after I get a chance to do some revisions on it.

Okay, I am actually still working on the border, I have been too lazy to do much work this week but I am pretty sure I am near a good one for it. Did he just pdf-ed it or he edited and did some graphical work as well?

Once I am done I will let you know though. ;)
 

Ry

Explorer
Here's what J.A. Dettman did:

(Just E6, not the drama rules in this document for the reasons mentioned before)
 
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Nifelhein

First Post
It looks really good, the whole side bar bothers me a bit but it looks good. I was aiming for a more graphical one, it still needed a lot of work but here is a preview of the file with a border, I used the one you posted earlier and changed any D&D to D20, but text is not something I worked on here (neither the formatting of the text).

I wanted to add a heraldry to the shield and work more on the sword. The wooden frame needs some more texture and is still a bit rough.
 

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mfrench

First Post
Nifelhein:

I tried to download yours, but when I opened it, I got an error. Perhaps the problem is on my end, but maybe not. Anyone else have problems?

Ryan:

I finally started the thread I said I'd start a few weeks ago about building an E6 campaign. It is here. Hope that you enjoy it!
 

MrNexx

First Post
Something that came to me while I was doing the dishes about this... it also does a great job of explaining why elves haven't taken over the world. Sure, they live for centuries, but if they, like everyone else, are capped at 6th level, then the human ability to breed faster becomes a real advantage.
 

Ry

Explorer
Yep. It also legitimizes some elven badasses in my campaign; they've been around long enough to pull together a LOT of feats. But they're not silly / invulnerable, and they're not just a few levels from the PCs being able to kick their asses, or vice versa.
 

Dragonblade275

First Post
Yep. I remember a thread on the WOTC boards where someone suggested that elves must have a learning disability in standard DnD d20 to be able to live that long and still not be several levels higher than the majority of the shorter lived races.

I like E6 more and more the more I think about it. Perhaps, E6 is my 4th Edition?
 

Dragonblade275

First Post
E6 Gestalt Variant

Ryan,

How did your complicated E6 Gestalt rules work (that you mentioned before)?

I'm imagining a variant on E6 where characters can begin becoming Gestalt characters after 6th level. In this variant, they would choose a class and add whatever portion of that class' abilities were new to them in lieu of a feat every 5,000 XP.

So, a 6th level Elven Wizard decides to improve his combat ability. Instead of taking a feat, he gestalts into the fighter class.

He already has the base wizard abilities of BAB +3; FORT +2; REF +2; WILL +5; and spellcasting, summon familiar, scribe scroll, and a bonus metamagic feat.

Now, gestalting into fighter, he compares the 1st level of fighter with what he's already got. Since the BAB and saves of the 1st level fighter aren't better than what he's already got, none of these improve. But, he does pick up the armor and weapon proficiencies of being a fighter and one fighter bonus feat.

Continuing this route... He could eventually be a full Gestalt Wizard6/Fighter6 with the following:

BAB +6; FORT +5; REF +2; WILL +5
Wizard: 6th level spellcasting ability; summon familiar; scribe scroll; 1 bonus Wizard feat
Fighter: Light, Medium, & Heavy Armor Proficiency; Shield & Tower Shild Proficiency; Simple & Martial Weapon Proficiency; and 4 fighter bonus feats.

Of course, he'd still be subject to the normal arcane speall failure percentages while in most armors without additional feats.

And, note that none of his base abilities ever rise above the maximum for a 6th level character.

Any thoughts?

My first thought would be that the XP cost of doing this should be different (more than) the XP cost of a feat.

My second thought is that many older elves would be double, if not triple gestalts with multiple feats on top of that. Thus supporting the popular idea of the Elven Fighter/Wizard.
 
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Ry

Explorer
Sorry Dragonblade... those notes were junked and are now over 3 years in the past. I really can't remember them. I know the idea was something like "Now that you've gained level 7, you're a gestalt Wizard6/Fighter 1, which of course is mostly the Wizard6, but you get a feat for fighter 1. Level 8 is Wizard6/Fighter2, and so on." But don't hold me to that design - that was something I abandoned.
 

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