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E6: The Game Inside D&D (new revision)

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Shazman

First Post
I agree. Getting to sixth level in 3.5 D&D does happen relatively quickly, but I wouldn't slow advancement to such a crawl. Character advancement is one of the main driving factors of D&D. It is one of the most entertaining and rewarding aspects of playing. If you have to play once a week for hours at a time for 6 months to get from 1st to 2nd level, you have removed one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game. That may work for you and your group, but it will most likely be rejected by most groups. "Freezing" advancement in the 6th to 9th level range preserves the "sweet spot" of the game.
 

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HeinorNY

First Post
Thaedrus said:
The problem with gaining feats throughout the advancement to 6th level is that you change the fundamental assumption of this idea.

The original idea was that a sweet spot exists at 6th to 9th level. this is where most players have the most fun. So getting to 6th level early is a good idea. Then the issue arrises that after power level higher than 9th, it becomes more work and book keeping for all involved, and the fun diminishes. So the level cap solves this.

Your idea would solve the higher power level problem, but not the issue that it is still more fun to play between levels 6 and 9.

The strength of E6 is that it allows early advancement to 6th, but prolongs the sweet spot for gaming. I like the original much better.

I understand and agree with you. As you said, the sweet point is between levels 6 and 9 but that's also very subjective and depends on the group.
I have a question BTW, if the point is to make characters have an ECL 10, why not just cap the level at 10? If 6 is the sweet spot, then giving lots of more feats won't eventually make character more powerful anyway, only in a different way?
While I'm asking these question I try to answer them, because I want to understand the concept behind E6. Prolly the answer is that by capping the game at level 6 and then only giving feats to characters, you would effectively raise the power lvl to ECL 10, but in a different way that keeps the low-fantasy flavor of the game.
But if the sweet spot is at lvl 6 plus feats, then why not just starting the game at lvl 6 anyway? Why force the player to pass through all the 5 levels of boredom before it?

As I said, it's all a matter of taste. I'll prolly use my idea because I want to keep the level advancement as part of the fun of the game. My group enjoy leveling up, at any level, 1st to 2nd is as fun as 15th to 16th. The espectative to reach a new level is an important part of the overall fun of my group, so I want to keep it lasting as long as possible.
 

HeinorNY

First Post
Shazman said:
I agree. Getting to sixth level in 3.5 D&D does happen relatively quickly, but I wouldn't slow advancement to such a crawl. Character advancement is one of the main driving factors of D&D. It is one of the most entertaining and rewarding aspects of playing. If you have to play once a week for hours at a time for 6 months to get from 1st to 2nd level, you have removed one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game. That may work for you and your group, but it will most likely be rejected by most groups. "Freezing" advancement in the 6th to 9th level range preserves the "sweet spot" of the game.

I hope you understand that your bolded statements are opposite to each other. You can't have them both. Or you have advancement, or you have the game frozen at the sweet spot.
The original idea kills, as you said, one of the main driving factors of D&D. In exchange it adds the possibility to keep the game running at the sweet spot levels.
I also like the original idea. I'd rather lose the level advancement element of the game in order to keep the feel of the mid-levels.
What I'm trying to do, maybe unsuccessfully, is to somehow make those two elements, the ones I bolded in your post, be possible to co-exist, through the entire campaign.
Of course you could say that feat gainning at every 5000 xp somehow replaces the fun element of level advancement. That would be a valid point. But a subjective one. I personally don't think it does.
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
ainatan said:
I hope you understand that your bolded statements are opposite to each other. You can't have them both. Or you have advancement, or you have the game frozen at the sweet spot.
The original idea kills, as you said, one of the main driving factors of D&D. In exchange it adds the possibility to keep the game running at the sweet spot levels.
I also like the original idea. I'd rather lose the level advancement element of the game in order to keep the feel of the mid-levels.
What I'm trying to do, maybe unsuccessfully, is to somehow make those two elements, the ones I bolded in your post, be possible to co-exist, through the entire campaign.
Of course you could say that feat gainning at every 5000 xp somehow replaces the fun element of level advancement. That would be a valid point. But a subjective one. I personally don't think it does.

Ainatan - define "level advancement" and definite "character advancement". It'll help me get an idea of where you're coming from.
 

HeinorNY

First Post
Kunimatyu said:
Ainatan - define "level advancement" and definite "character advancement". It'll help me get an idea of where you're coming from.

Since I'm mainly a D&D and D20 system player, to me both are the same. To advance your character you need to gain levels, or find magic items :)
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
ainatan said:
Since I'm mainly a D&D and D20 system player, to me both are the same. To advance your character you need to gain levels, or find magic items :)

What's important about gaining levels?
 

HeinorNY

First Post
Kunimatyu said:
What's important about gaining levels?

In D&D it's one of the major fun elements of the game. Much of the game is focused on developing your character, making him stronger and powerful. Gaining levels is what is it all about.
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
ainatan said:
In D&D it's one of the major fun elements of the game. Much of the game is focused on developing your character, making him stronger and powerful. Gaining levels is what is it all about.

What, precisely, about gaining a level is important to you as a player of D&D/d20?
 


TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
ainatan said:
Is this an interview??? Are going to make up a personalized RPG system just for me? ;)

I think what Kunimatyu's getting at is that you're employing some circular logic. In d20, you advance by getting levels. It's fun to advance, therefore I need to level to have fun.

But if you can advance by gaining feats, isn't that the same fun?

If it isn't fun to gain feats, why not? What makes gaining a feat somehow different than gaining a level, fun-wise?
 

HeinorNY

First Post
TwoSix said:
I think what Kunimatyu's getting at is that you're employing some circular logic. In d20, you advance by getting levels. It's fun to advance, therefore I need to level to have fun.

But if you can advance by gaining feats, isn't that the same fun?

If it isn't fun to gain feats, why not? What makes gaining a feat somehow different than gaining a level, fun-wise?

Because when you gain a level, you gain HD, BAB, Saves, skills, feats, class abilites, maybe spells, maybe your familiar/animal companion gets better, you know, all this stuff that makes you feel the character really got better. If you only gain a feat, well, it's just a feat.
It is subjecitve. I don't feel feat gaining can entirely replace level advancement as the "character development" fun element of D&D. Maybe just a little. To gain a new feat is like 20% of the fun of really gaining a full new level.
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
TwoSix said:
I think what Kunimatyu's getting at is that you're employing some circular logic. In d20, you advance by getting levels. It's fun to advance, therefore I need to level to have fun.

But if you can advance by gaining feats, isn't that the same fun?

If it isn't fun to gain feats, why not? What makes gaining a feat somehow different than gaining a level, fun-wise?

This is what I what getting at, albeit in a very roundabout way.
 

HeinorNY

First Post
Kunimatyu said:
This is what I what getting at, albeit in a very roundabout way.

I'm sorry, socratic methods don't really work that well with me. Same way with hypnotism and jedi mind tricks :p
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
ainatan said:
It is subjective. I don't feel feat gaining can entirely replace level advancement as the "character development" fun element of D&D. Maybe just a little. To gain a new feat is like 20% of the fun of really gaining a full new level.

Interesting -- my group seems to get far, far more excited about feats than levels with just numerical bonuses.

Unfortunately, unless a magical 4th Edition shows up that solves all of these concerns, you're left with two basic options:

1) Play D&D straight up, with level-gaining but a system that rapidly dissolves into chaos at the higher levels.

2) Play E6, where levels cap, but advancement through feats continues.

At this point in time, it's not possible to have all of the benefits of levelling without some annoying drawbacks. I will also point out that even massively successful games based off the levelling mechanic (World of Warcraft, looking at you) have caps where further level gain is impossible and character advancement only occurs through item acquisition. At least with E6, once you reach the level cap, you get to keep getting new abilities, too.
 

Ry

Explorer
Here's how I see E6 vs. D&D, in terms of power levels.

Character advancement in D&D is an upward sloping curve; levels are a linear, but the feats and magic items that get added on top makes the progression even faster. As players get better and better combinations of items and feats and class abilities, they can combine them in better and better ways. This leads to levelling out of the Heroic Fantasy quartile (6-10) and into the Wuxia quartile (11-15). The Wuxia quartile is also more complex, which is another mark against it for some.

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Levelling in E6 is like D&D till 6th level, and you always get the fun of advancing. But the advancing after 6th is slower, and while you keep getting closer and closer to CR 10 power level, you're getting there slower and slower; feats always add a mechanical benefit, but the combinations and permutations of the feats and items you've acquired don't "crack the top" of CR 10 power level.

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HeinorNY

First Post
Kunimatyu said:
2) Play E6, where levels cap, but advancement through feats continues.

But what if advancement through feats is not cool enough? What if character instead of leveling up to 6 and then start getting feats, he leveled in a slower rate, but get all those feats he would gain later through normal leveling?

I'm not an ECL savvy, so I ask you, what is the ECL of a 3rd level character with 3 extra feats? What about the same character with 7 extra feats?
 


HeinorNY

First Post
What must I do to get the green line? With lvls, feats and magic items?
 

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Ry

Explorer
Mr Nexx... thanks for the threadlink... man, seems like I ran over another dog over there.

ainatan, honestly it sounds like you just want to slow down D&D's normal progression. You could do that in a few different ways, the simplest being cut down on experience and pace your campaign to end around 10th.
 

HeinorNY

First Post
rycanada said:
Mr Nexx... thanks for the threadlink... man, seems like I ran over another dog over there.

ainatan, honestly it sounds like you just want to slow down D&D's normal progression. You could do that in a few different ways, the simplest being cut down on experience and pace your campaign to end around 10th.

Maybe, do you think a 10th level character is as powerful as a 6th level character with 20 extra feats?
I don't want to simply slow it down. Using that xp table i proposed when a character gets 115.000 xp he will have the same numbers, HD, BAB, skills feats, etc as the same character using original E6 rules. The only difference is that the power comes in a different progression, more evenly distributed along all levels, so the green line. Maybe it's not the best way to do it, maybe not as fun as E6, but I prefer a regular power progression.
 
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