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E6: The Game Inside D&D (new revision)

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Ry

Explorer
I don't know how to get a really smooth line like that, but you should watch out for accidentally replacing a smooth line with some very steep stairs. I doubt you're looking for a really stratified world.

I think about 20 feats is about +4 CR, but it's hard to pull out more than +4 CR from feats alone. But YMMV; I don't have the playtesting resources or expertise to retool the progression to a straight line.
 

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It's still good to know that even with material power increases as graphed, it can still work without going from Gritty fantasy to Heroic fantasy to Final Fantasy (not invoking Remathilis' law. This distinction is STRICTLY referring to effective power levels.)
 
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Daelkyr

First Post
Another pdf

For some reason, I felt inspired to try my own hand at a pdf for E6.

Not much, but here it is.

On a side note, love the idea, can't wait to test it out on my players.

But here's a question:

Is there any feat that will advance you skill cap after lvl 6? I play Eberron and would like to ensure that the Greater Dragonmark is available.
 

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joela

First Post
What about the DM?

Looking over the various cross-links and the rants and raves against E6, a thought struck me.

So far much of the discussion on E6 has been focused on the impact the variant has the the players and their PCs. BABs are frozen at 6th, no 4th level spells, yaddayaddayadda.

But what about the DM's POV? While the system may at first it may look like a gawddess sent ("Yay! No worries about sending a pit fiend and its krew to even challenge the PCs."), won't there be times you'd like to try out such creatures? Or what about higher level spells or psionics (e.g., Foresight, Shapechange, etc.) that look really kewl. And I've read plenty a PrC which grant abilities that would be interesting to try out as either a PC or as an NPC against the PCs.

Should one simply "scale down" such encounters/spells/classes? Or resist the temptation and figure out another way to make kobolds/orcs/gnolls more challenging yet again? :D
 

What about a feat that bump up your caster level by 1 or 2. This would allow a caster to still increase damae and duration, but in a costly maner. It would also allow for higher level artifice.

A simillar feat could be given for "effective" BAB, allowing for higher level feats. This feat would also stack as effective fighter levels for fighters only. Weapon supremacy would be a nasty feat under these rules, but what if you had to sacrifice 6 or 12 feats for it?
 

mfrench

First Post
rycanada said:
... man, seems like I ran over another dog over there.

Yeah, with all the time you spend killing these people's pets, how do you still find time to game?

"Hey, someone on the internet that I've never met enjoys a different part of gaming then me! **Curse curse curse curse curse**"
 

Shazman

First Post
ainatan said:
I hope you understand that your bolded statements are opposite to each other. You can't have them both. Or you have advancement, or you have the game frozen at the sweet spot.
The original idea kills, as you said, one of the main driving factors of D&D. In exchange it adds the possibility to keep the game running at the sweet spot levels.
I also like the original idea. I'd rather lose the level advancement element of the game in order to keep the feel of the mid-levels.
What I'm trying to do, maybe unsuccessfully, is to somehow make those two elements, the ones I bolded in your post, be possible to co-exist, through the entire campaign.
Of course you could say that feat gainning at every 5000 xp somehow replaces the fun element of level advancement. That would be a valid point. But a subjective one. I personally don't think it does.

The point I was trying to make is advancement should still be there, but in a way that preserves the "sweet spot" feel that is the essence of E6. You rapidly reach 6th level, and then you still have some advancement via feats you get fairly rapidly, probably every 2 sessions or so. One of the most rewarding parts of leveling is picking your feats, especially since it doesn't happen very often unless you are playing a fighter or psychic warrior. It's fun but also difficult since you have to be very picky with your few feat slots. In E6, you don't have to be so picky because you can eventually get most of the feats you want. It just seemed to me that your system would have players playing for a very long time before getting these rewards. I would rather get a feat on a farily regular basis than play for six months before I get that level and several bonus feats. I believe most players would feel this way as well.
 

Ry

Explorer
I just wanted to pass this along, it's J A Dettman's layout of the Raising the Stakes in .pdf format.

This is the most up to date version I've written, but I know it probably still needs more editing.
 
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HeinorNY

First Post
Shazman said:
I would rather get a feat on a farily regular basis than play for six months before I get that level and several bonus feats. I believe most players would feel this way as well.

I understand and agree.
Based on this quote, what do you think about my second xp progression? There you also get a feat at a regular basis, every 6000xp since level 1, but gain levels slower.

Nobody answered me about the ECL of a 3rd level character with 3 extra feats. It's not a challenge, I really want to know that in order to improve my idea for my group. Thanks.
 

Cheiromancer

Explorer
Reply 255 has really stretched the screen. It makes it hard to read the posts. :(

I wonder if putting those graphics in sblocks would help?
 


knight_isa

First Post
ainatan said:
Nobody answered me about the ECL of a 3rd level character with 3 extra feats. It's not a challenge, I really want to know that in order to improve my idea for my group. Thanks.

Well, I'd say it's pretty close to 3.

1. 3 extra feats at first level is probably about ECL +1. I'm no expert here; it's just a gut feel. If you buy Unearthed Arcana's argument that the benefits for an ECL +1 race start to pale in comparison to the level adjustment around level 3 (and thus like the optional rule to buy it off), then I think it's safe to say that it's still close to 3. Maybe 3.5-ish.

2. This is based entirely upon anecdotal evidence, but I've seen more than one thread about DM's giving players a feat every level instead of every third level. IIRC, they reported noticing almost no power difference. The only real difference that I recall hearing about was that more players chose "sub-par" feats because they had so many feats they could burn a few feats on "in-character" feats without skipping over the more powerful feats.

I'm about to start a campaign (hopefully next week) using the feat/level, so I'll see then (well, kind of--there are only two players left since the rest moved out of state). We'll be starting at third level. I ran E6 (well, E8, actually) passed the players, but they weren't too enthused, so we're not going that route at the moment, though.
 

tvar

Explorer
rycanda, can you (or anyone really) give some of your thoughts about what some of the difficulties are for adapting E6 for some other "sweet spot" other than level 6? I was personally thinking of trying it out for level 12 (yeah, it's much more powerful than 6, but I actually enjoy play a lot at that level, and it is before some of the more "world shattering" spells enter the picture).

It was mentioned briefly at the beginning of this thread (I think) that it becomes more difficult to figure out CRs at higher levels. Can you expand on that? Are there other difficulties that you foresee?

And thanks for developing this. Great work!
 

White Whale

First Post
I think the E6 idea is interesting, but like some other posters I feel the advancement beyond level 6 may be a bit dull.

This made me think of a gestalt system similar to the one Dragonblade275 suggested, and I don't think there would be that much hassle to do actually:
-all numbers (saves, BAB,...) are equal to the maximum achievable with any composition of 6 levels of the character.
-Hitpoints are given at each level up. However, the character's hitpoints may not exceed the maximum that any 6 levels of the character's classes could be.

Example for explanation - Clr4/Ftr2/Rog3
BAB = 5 (Ftr2/Clr4)
REF = 4 (Rog3/Clr3)
FORT = 7 (Ftr2/Clr4)
WILL = 4 (Clr4/any2)
Max Hitpoints = 52 + 6*CON (Ftr2/Clr4)

If this character now advanced as a barbarian next level, this would be the result:
BAB = 5 (Ftr2/Bar1/Clr3)
REF = 4 (Rog3/Clr3)
FORT = 8 (Ftr2/Bar1/Clr3)
WILL = 4 (Clr4/any2)
Max Hitpoints = 56 + 6*CON (Bar1/Ftr2/Clr3)

...and of course the character gained all abilities of the barbarian level.

IMO, this approach seems more interesting than E6. It gives more abilities that are not out of hand powerwise, and it encourages multiclassing. It is probably more powerful advancement than E6 though, and I would ban prestige classes entirely.
 

green slime

First Post
I would like a clarification on your death flag rule.

Is it raised only for the encounter, the adventure, or does it stay raised until the character can afford to spend 6 conviction points to lower it again? Because then theoritcally the character could wander around for years under the "death flag", which sort of makes me wonder if such a character would have their maximum conviction points raised by 6 for the entire duration?

Some of my players seem to accept death rather easily.
 

It would essentially make every PC the same. By the time you got to higher levels, everyone would be some variation of combatant/caster/skill monkey (6). E6 as it stands makes you six level choices very important.

I would also say that granting max HP would be a good idea in general. I know your achieving it as a cap, not a per level grant. But max HP seem to fit E6. I may just be saying that since I already grant max HP in a normal game. :)
 

Ry

Explorer
green slime said:
I would like a clarification on your death flag rule.

Is it raised only for the encounter, the adventure, or does it stay raised until the character can afford to spend 6 conviction points to lower it again? Because then theoritcally the character could wander around for years under the "death flag", which sort of makes me wonder if such a character would have their maximum conviction points raised by 6 for the entire duration?

Some of my players seem to accept death rather easily.

The intention is that PCs never regenerate to more than 6 Conviction. So if a PC raised their flag, they get 6 extra, and while this gives them more than their maximum (6) they won't regenerate these extra; the extra points stick around till used but a PC won't regenerate past 6.
 

Ry

Explorer
tvar, I don't know that much about high-level play (which for me is anything over 10) because my d20 games have tended to end around 10th or earlier when I wasn't using E6. I also have run a homebrew a lot.

But this is my thought: In a 12th level capped world, the players can do a LOT of stuff. They can acquire a LOT of items. Between the feats available, the spells available, and the number of magic items that the PCs could find or create in such a world, I think that the PCs could get up to 20th-level abilities with enough time and development. This is because they can use their wealth of items (that they can legitimately create) as leverage in combination with feats and the other abilities they have.

So I would expect that if you used E6 at 12th level, you'd find it a slower progression between 12th and 20th than D&D, and if that's the game you want, excellent. But I doubt that you'll see the speed of play and prep that really shows up with E6.
 

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