E6: The Game Inside D&D (new revision)

[HeinorNY]

I think what Kunimatyu's getting at is that you're employing some circular logic. In d20, you advance by getting levels. It's fun to advance, therefore I need to level to have fun.

But if you can advance by gaining feats, isn't that the same fun?

If it isn't fun to gain feats, why not? What makes gaining a feat somehow different than gaining a level, fun-wise?

Because when you gain a level, you gain HD, BAB, Saves, skills, feats, class abilites, maybe spells, maybe your familiar/animal companion gets better, you know, all this stuff that makes you feel the character really got better. If you only gain a feat, well, it's just a feat.
It is subjecitve. I don't feel feat gaining can entirely replace level advancement as the "character development" fun element of D&D. Maybe just a little. To gain a new feat is like 20% of the fun of really gaining a full new level.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I think what Kunimatyu's getting at is that you're employing some circular logic. In d20, you advance by getting levels. It's fun to advance, therefore I need to level to have fun.

But if you can advance by gaining feats, isn't that the same fun?

If it isn't fun to gain feats, why not? What makes gaining a feat somehow different than gaining a level, fun-wise?

This is what I what getting at, albeit in a very roundabout way.

 

[HeinorNY]

This is what I what getting at, albeit in a very roundabout way.

I'm sorry, socratic methods don't really work that well with me. Same way with hypnotism and jedi mind tricks

 

[Kunimatyu]

It is subjective. I don't feel feat gaining can entirely replace level advancement as the "character development" fun element of D&D. Maybe just a little. To gain a new feat is like 20% of the fun of really gaining a full new level.

Interesting -- my group seems to get far, far more excited about feats than levels with just numerical bonuses.

Unfortunately, unless a magical 4th Edition shows up that solves all of these concerns, you're left with two basic options:

1) Play D&D straight up, with level-gaining but a system that rapidly dissolves into chaos at the higher levels.

2) Play E6, where levels cap, but advancement through feats continues.

At this point in time, it's not possible to have all of the benefits of levelling without some annoying drawbacks. I will also point out that even massively successful games based off the levelling mechanic (World of Warcraft, looking at you) have caps where further level gain is impossible and character advancement only occurs through item acquisition. At least with E6, once you reach the level cap, you get to keep getting new abilities, too.

 

[Ry]

Here's how I see E6 vs. D&D, in terms of power levels.

Character advancement in D&D is an upward sloping curve; levels are a linear, but the feats and magic items that get added on top makes the progression even faster. As players get better and better combinations of items and feats and class abilities, they can combine them in better and better ways. This leads to levelling out of the Heroic Fantasy quartile (6-10) and into the Wuxia quartile (11-15). The Wuxia quartile is also more complex, which is another mark against it for some.

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Levelling in E6 is like D&D till 6th level, and you always get the fun of advancing. But the advancing after 6th is slower, and while you keep getting closer and closer to CR 10 power level, you're getting there slower and slower; feats always add a mechanical benefit, but the combinations and permutations of the feats and items you've acquired don't "crack the top" of CR 10 power level.

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[HeinorNY]

2) Play E6, where levels cap, but advancement through feats continues.

But what if advancement through feats is not cool enough? What if character instead of leveling up to 6 and then start getting feats, he leveled in a slower rate, but get all those feats he would gain later through normal leveling?

I'm not an ECL savvy, so I ask you, what is the ECL of a 3rd level character with 3 extra feats? What about the same character with 7 extra feats?

 

[MrNexx]

http://www.criticalfumble.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5465

Another thread.

 

[HeinorNY]

What must I do to get the green line? With lvls, feats and magic items?

 

[Ry]

Mr Nexx... thanks for the threadlink... man, seems like I ran over another dog over there.

ainatan, honestly it sounds like you just want to slow down D&D's normal progression. You could do that in a few different ways, the simplest being cut down on experience and pace your campaign to end around 10th.

 

[HeinorNY]

Mr Nexx... thanks for the threadlink... man, seems like I ran over another dog over there.

ainatan, honestly it sounds like you just want to slow down D&D's normal progression. You could do that in a few different ways, the simplest being cut down on experience and pace your campaign to end around 10th.

Maybe, do you think a 10th level character is as powerful as a 6th level character with 20 extra feats?
I don't want to simply slow it down. Using that xp table i proposed when a character gets 115.000 xp he will have the same numbers, HD, BAB, skills feats, etc as the same character using original E6 rules. The only difference is that the power comes in a different progression, more evenly distributed along all levels, so the green line. Maybe it's not the best way to do it, maybe not as fun as E6, but I prefer a regular power progression.