E6: The Game Inside D&D (new revision)

[green slime]

People say this frequently, but I have a hard time believing it. One of the premises of the system is to introduce lots of new feats. Just looking at the Complete series, there are great tactical feats (Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, Elusive Target), each with pre-reqs to take. Most people won't have the +6 BAB to ever qualify. You can round out a guy with Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Improved Init. I had a melee guy do this in one of my games: he got very versatile, so that in any situation he had something to do, even if the situation's parameters meant that his 'main shtick' wasn't appropriate.

If a player wants to be a fighter, couldn't a willing DM create or dig up other feats that suit the player's vision? A fighter remains the only option for wearing heavy armor and being in melee without being held to a strict code of ethics. He also remains the only class with tower field proficieny (others can get it, but then the fighter's another feat ahead, isn't he?).

The problem being just that: not the number of feats available, but the number of feats available for which the character meets the prerequisites: Not everybody is going to create fighter characters with Dex 13, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 13.... In order for their fighter to get enough "interesting" feats (Dodge, Expertise, various Exalted feats,...) It is also worthy to note, that this is more difficult with a lower starting point buy. Additionally there aren't going to be so many opportunities to raise stats quite so much to qualify either. YMMV.

THe fact remains, the four feat advantage of the fighter starts to pale over time: the longer the campaign goes on for, the less of a percieved benefit the fighter gains for being just a fighter. In essence, at the most, he is one feat-chain ahead of a Barbarian or Paladin. Which feels significant when the fighter player is the only one to complete a feat chain in the party. But when everyone has three or four, the fighters additional feat chain may start to feel insignificant.

 

[Ry]

green_slime, I don't think that's correct. For one, if you're using the gestalt or lean upward approach to feats, nobody's class features are sacred.

Secondly, I don't think the four feat advantage of the fighter starts to pale over time. I think it's weak because it's weak at 6th level, if at all.

Think of it as fruit:
One basket ("6th-level fighter") has a cantaloupe, 3 spartan apples (character feats) and 4 granny smith apples (fighter feats).
The other basket ("6th-level Barbarian") has a watermelon (more hp, less armor), 3 spartan apples (character feats) and some tangerines (barbarian class features).

If you add a spartan apple to each basket, they're both 1 spartan apple better. You could say that the Barbarian and Fighter baskets are more similar now, but if you say the Barbarian basket is more valuable than the Fighter basket, you should take out the identical stuff (spartan apples) and look at what they don't share (cantaloupe + granny smiths vs watermelon + tangerines)

 

[DogBackward]

It's not always that the feats aren't powerful enough, it's that they aren't nearly unique enough. Anybody can get them, really, except for one or two that are Fighter-only, and that just doesn't cut it. A class's entire set of class features simply should not be something that everybody can get, given enough time.

I like the Wildcard feats because, while anybody can get the feats, only the Fighter can swap them around at will. That combined with the mechanical boosts (more class skills and skill points, d12 HD) make the Fighter worth choosing. Otherwise, it's far too bland.

Even in normal D&D, I rarely see anybody play fighters, because there's so much more out there that is much more interesting. And with E6, where these 6 levels are all you get, ever, having worthwhile and interesting class features is vitally important.

 

[Ry]

It's not always that the feats aren't powerful enough, it's that they aren't nearly unique enough.

I'm going to ask in General for an OGC soldier class.

 

[joela]

fighters

Even in normal D&D, I rarely see anybody play fighters, because there's so much more out there that is much more interesting.

Really? I see the opposite. What I've seen are players, though, who min-max their feats, especially if the DM allows things like Flaws. Wizards, from my experience, tend to be least played, especially at lower levels.

 

[kaomera]

Even in normal D&D, I rarely see anybody play fighters, because there's so much more out there that is much more interesting. And with E6, where these 6 levels are all you get, ever, having worthwhile and interesting class features is vitally important.

I've seen the opposite complaint, that because every Barbarian or Scout or whatever gets the same class features, they're "not much fun to play" compared to a Fighter that can have any number of different feats... Obviously this is less of a problem with more and more alternate class features available, but for every new alternate class feature there are several if not dozens of new feats.

There is the potential issue of running out of good feats to take, but I've been ignoring that on the grounds that if any character runs out of worthwhile / interesting feats, then IMHO E6 kind of flounders overall. So that puts the Fighter n feats ahead, and they aren't going to be minor, start-of-chain feats. Rather you're going to see the Fighter having at least an entire extra feat chain as compared to other characters. As far as ability scores go I can see going two ways: Str, Dex, and Int 13+ (for Whirlwind Attack) or Str 13+ and Dex 16 (for Manyshot and/or Improved TWF). Either leaves 17 build points out of 32...

I do have to reluctantly agree that it's probably better to run a Fighter 4 / Something 2 than a straight Fighter 6. Take Barbarian: Now if I'm actually interested Rage, I'm going to play a Barbarian 6, and build for maximum Strength as opposed to a more balanced set of ability scores for a Fighter. However, if the character is Chaotic, then I think that Fast Movement plus Uncanny Dodge is worth at least a feat, probably more. I don't think that an extra two or so hit points is really all that significant, and I usually run with house rules that suppress the saving-throw "jump" from multiclassing, but even if I'm going to choose never to use Rage (and if nothing else it's a nice ace in the hole) I think that with the extra four skill points and more options for class skills I would not hesitate to take those two levels of Barbarian...

 

[HeinorNY]

Hello all. Nice work!

I like E6 the way it is, but i still don't feel 100% happy with the character development divided in two steps: level up and feat buying.
What about putting everything together?
Since the target of this system is to create characters with ECL 10, or strong enough for CR7-12 encounters, (but keeping the lvl benefits(hp, saves, bab, skills) in order to maintain the low and gritty fantasy feel at the 6th lvl) what about stretching the xp table, so when the character reachs lvl 6 he is actually the most powerful character possible, and achieves the power level or sweet point for this system?

Here is my idea:

Level	XP	Class Bonus Feats
1	0	2
2	5.000	2
3	15.000	3
4	35.000	3
5	65.000	5
6	115.000	5

The xp is set at maximum 115.000 because thats the amount of xp a character will have when he is lvl 6 with the extra 20 feats. His power level will be enough to fight cr 7-12. The other purpose of this is that character can spect to gain new stuff until his maximum level, and not just get everything at lvl 6, and then only feats.

The "class" before bonus feats is because I'm planning to create lists of bonus feats for all classes, so there are reasons to level up in all of them, regardles of the class abilities.

thanks again for all the work done, the basic idea of E6 is exactly what I was looking for.

-----------------#-----------------#-----------------#-----------------#-----------------#

Thinking better, every commoner would receive 2 extra feats. too powerful.
What about this:

Level	XP
1	0
2	6.000 
3	18.000 
4	36.000 
5	72.000 
6	120.000

Using that xp chart, characters gain 1 extra feat for every 6.000 xp he gains. So he gains extra feats between levels. A character with 12.000 is still level 1 bu gains an additional feat.If he goes up to 18.000, he gains another feats and levels up. What do you think?
After lvl 6, the XP gained could be used to increase the maximum amount of Conviction points the character gains each day.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Hi ainatan! I like the way you think: In the other thread I proposed the idea of never actually eliminating level advancement, but just requiring exponentially more xp. And a "heroic start" of third level. For example

Level	XP   Class Bonus Feats
3	0	 0
4	5.000	 0
5	10.000   0
        15,000   1
6	20.000	 1
        25,000   2
        30,000   3
        35,000   4
7	40.000	 4
        45,000   5
        50,000   6
        55,000   7
        60,000   8
        65,000   9
        70,000   10
8	80.000	 11
...
9       160,000  26

You'd get *something* every 5,000 xp. If not a level advancement, then a bonus feat.

I think this hybrid method would be how I would use E6.

 

[HeinorNY]

I see what you mean.
The power progression is almost the same. I prefer to start at level because i like to have players starting at lvl 1 as normal people, and becoming heroes as they gain lvls, but that's just taste.
I think we agree in the concept. My idea is to make the character development more regular. If level 6 + 20 feats is the maximum level of power a person can have, or the ideal level of power a character should have to keep the setting's low-fantasy flavor, then from the metagame perspective it should be an end-game target, not something you achieve in the first 10 or 15 sessions.
It is also a cosmetic preference

 

[Thaedrus]

Changing the advancement

The problem with gaining feats throughout the advancement to 6th level is that you change the fundamental assumption of this idea.

The original idea was that a sweet spot exists at 6th to 9th level. this is where most players have the most fun. So getting to 6th level early is a good idea. Then the issue arrises that after power level higher than 9th, it becomes more work and book keeping for all involved, and the fun diminishes. So the level cap solves this.

Your idea would solve the higher power level problem, but not the issue that it is still more fun to play between levels 6 and 9.

The strength of E6 is that it allows early advancement to 6th, but prolongs the sweet spot for gaming. I like the original much better.