E6: The Game Inside D&D (with PDFs!)

[Kunimatyu]

Kunimatyu, where's that feat where, if taken by a spellcaster, grants half the CL in number of spells (i.e., 6th caster can either select 1 3rd level spells or 2 2nd level spells or 3 first level spells)?

I think it got changed to a feat that simply grants an extra spell known + spell slot, with a prereq of Level 6 in a casting class.

EDIT: Here they are:

Expanded Knowledge (General) (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell known at any level you can cast from that class's spell list.

Expanded Casting (General) (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast.

Personally, while it was more complicated, I like the CL/2 thing, as otherwise 1st level slots are too costly to pick up.

 

[Ry]

The Wiz 6, on the other hand, will not have to worry about becoming increasingly irrelevant as the martial classes are slowly able to handle greater and greater challenges

I want to clear something up right away: This doesn't happen in any of the E6 games I've run. The Wizard remains powerful and interesting throughout E6 games. The martial classes do not outpace the wizard in any of the playtests I've run.

That said, if you think 6th level spells are part of the sweet spot for D&D, consider E12 as was suggested above.

 

[Elergan]

Something I don't understand when you say that "otherwise 1st level slots are too costly to pick up"...
There's no point in getting 1st-level spell slots, since, unless I'm mistaken, you can memorize a lower-level spell with a higher spell slot if it suits you.

So with the Expanded Casting feat, you should always get an extra slot for the highest level you can cast.

How about a feat granting an additional level in the spellcasting class but only as far as spell slots are concerned? (That is without granting access to spells higher than 3rd level.)

For exemple, a 6th level wizard taking this feat 3 times would be considered (as far as slots are concerned) as à 9th level spellcaster and so would go from a daily spell selection of 4/3/3/2 to 4/4/4/3/2/1, thus gainging more slots at usable levels (1 first-level, 1 second-level and 1 third level slot plus 2 "fourth level" and one "fifth level" slots that he could use for the purpose of applying metamagic to 1-3rd level spells).
Maybe you could also allow those "higher level slots" to be used to memorize lower level spells as usual.
Thus, a "high level " E6 wizard would be superior to his less experienced fellow mage because he can cast a lot more spells or can metamagic spells.

I don't think it would be overbalanced, and it could convey the feeling of the "archmage", not because he can disintegrate you (non available in E6) but because it will take some time before he runs out of spells adn thus can cast a variety of spells...

 

[Grimstaff]

I want to clear something up right away: This doesn't happen in any of the E6 games I've run. The Wizard remains powerful and interesting throughout E6 games. The martial classes do not outpace the wizard in any of the playtests I've run.

That said, if you think 6th level spells are part of the sweet spot for D&D, consider E12 as was suggested above.

The idea behind the feat was to allow a few more levels of spells into the campaign while still maintaining the fun 6th lvl cap. A 6th lvl Wiz with 3 Advanced Magic feats will be able to cast up to 5th lvl spells, and should be able to use most of his metamagic feats. Even if you forbade 4th and 5th lvl spells, the feat would still be useful if only for the metamagic purposes. And any spells you feel would unabalance or complicate the game would simply be left out, such as save or die spells.

Also, don't forget gaining 2 spells is a benefit of gaining a class level, not a caster level. Those higher level spells would be jealously guarded and kept highly secret and exclusive. Whole campaign plots could evolve around the quest for a lost spellbook containing 2 5th level spells, or completing a mission for the Guilde Majicka to gain access to the "special library".

And all the while, the Wiz6, while having a few more tricks up his sleeve, still has the hp, saves, and probably most importantly, Spellcraft and Concentration checks of a 6th level wizard. It's going to be that much more challenging to use high lvl spells in combat or learn them.

 

[Kunimatyu]

The idea behind the feat was to allow a few more levels of spells into the campaign while still maintaining the fun 6th lvl cap. A 6th lvl Wiz with 3 Advanced Magic feats will be able to cast up to 5th lvl spells, and should be able to use most of his metamagic feats. Even if you forbade 4th and 5th lvl spells, the feat would still be useful if only for the metamagic purposes. And any spells you feel would unabalance or complicate the game would simply be left out, such as save or die spells.

Also, don't forget gaining 2 spells is a benefit of gaining a class level, not a caster level. Those higher level spells would be jealously guarded and kept highly secret and exclusive. Whole campaign plots could evolve around the quest for a lost spellbook containing 2 5th level spells, or completing a mission for the Guilde Majicka to gain access to the "special library".

And all the while, the Wiz6, while having a few more tricks up his sleeve, still has the hp, saves, and probably most importantly, Spellcraft and Concentration checks of a 6th level wizard. It's going to be that much more challenging to use high lvl spells in combat or learn them.

For what you're saying here, I think that rather than introducing your feat, you'd be better off creating feats that allow the casting of a 4th or 5th level (that was determined to not be crazy powerful like Evard's, Solid Fog, or the like) spell, much the same way Ryan has feats for restoration, stone to flesh, etc, etc. I personally feel that a Wall of Fire feat would be a good idea, as it's not hideously broken and shows up a lot in fantasy literature.

Extra "empty" slots for metamagic purposes can be functionally handled by the Swift Metamagic feat (really!), and it'll annoy your players less than empty slots will.

Furthermore, look into incantations a bit -- they allow the sort of higher-level spells that could form the cornerstone of a campaign, as you said.

Now, if your feat works for you, great, but I think you need to look into the basics of E6 a little more, because my impression is that you're trying to solve a problem that actually isn't there - wizards can be amazingly potent and fun in E6, even if they're capped at 3rd level spells.

 

[Grimstaff]

For what you're saying here, I think that rather than introducing your feat, you'd be better off creating feats that allow the casting of a 4th or 5th level (that was determined to not be crazy powerful like Evard's, Solid Fog, or the like) spell, much the same way Ryan has feats for restoration, stone to flesh, etc, etc. I personally feel that a Wall of Fire feat would be a good idea, as it's not hideously broken and shows up a lot in fantasy literature.

Extra "empty" slots for metamagic purposes can be functionally handled by the Swift Metamagic feat (really!), and it'll annoy your players less than empty slots will.

Furthermore, look into incantations a bit -- they allow the sort of higher-level spells that could form the cornerstone of a campaign, as you said.

Now, if your feat works for you, great, but I think you need to look into the basics of E6 a little more, because my impression is that you're trying to solve a problem that actually isn't there - wizards can be amazingly potent and fun in E6, even if they're capped at 3rd level spells.

For me its more a question of flavor than solving any kind of mechanical problem. I curently use core books only, and am attracted by the power level of E6, but would like to retain some of the classic D&D high level spells, without having to rely on a bunch of other books and feats to achieve the same end result only in a more roundabout way. Why try to finesse 8 or 9 different feats into doing the same thing I can accomplish with 1?
This is the same issue I have with all the official and unofficial attempts at creating a properly balanced "gish" fighter/wizard. I threw away a dozen prestige classes, alternate classes, and feats and replaced them with one simple feat: Armored Casting (using this feat allows the use of arcane spells while wearing light armor without the normal chance of arcane spell failure). One simple feat removed the need to waste several levels qualifying for some prestige class or other just to wear armor while you cast a spell.
For me, as a DM, keeping it simple is my motto. That's why E6 appeals to me. So when looking for a way to keep spells like Heal, Dimension Door, and Telekinesis in my game, I want the simplest, quickest, and most direct solution.
One easy feat.

 

[Kunimatyu]

For me its more a question of flavor than solving any kind of mechanical problem. I curently use core books only, and am attracted by the power level of E6, but would like to retain some of the classic D&D high level spells, without having to rely on a bunch of other books and feats to achieve the same end result only in a more roundabout way. Why try to finesse 8 or 9 different feats into doing the same thing I can accomplish with 1?
This is the same issue I have with all the official and unofficial attempts at creating a properly balanced "gish" fighter/wizard. I threw away a dozen prestige classes, alternate classes, and feats and replaced them with one simple feat: Armored Casting (using this feat allows the use of arcane spells while wearing light armor without the normal chance of arcane spell failure). One simple feat removed the need to waste several levels qualifying for some prestige class or other just to wear armor while you cast a spell.
For me, as a DM, keeping it simple is my motto. That's why E6 appeals to me. So when looking for a way to keep spells like Heal, Dimension Door, and Telekinesis in my game, I want the simplest, quickest, and most direct solution.
One easy feat.

If simplicity is your goal, how about only having higher level spells (ie. level 4+ spells) as scrolls that have to be found, or require a (titan/deity/outsider) to make them for you? That way, higher-level magic is present but rare, relics of a forgotten age, not something casually thrown around every encounter.

If you allow wizards to cast disintegrations, walls of force, et al several times per day, not only will every single PC be tempted to take 1 level of wizard just to get all of that(and taking the feat ten times to get 6th level spells really isn't that hard in E6), but you'll completely wreck the balance of your game, and lose the flavor of E6 -- you'll just have "lower level D&D that doesn't work and has a really high death rate".

I'm not trying to be negative here, and I can certainly understand the desire for simplicity, but I'm afraid your solution will result in a wrecked campaign, so I'm trying to give the best advice I can.

 

[Grimstaff]

If simplicity is your goal, how about only having higher level spells (ie. level 4+ spells) as scrolls that have to be found, or require a (titan/deity/outsider) to make them for you? That way, higher-level magic is present but rare, relics of a forgotten age, not something casually thrown around every encounter.

If you allow wizards to cast disintegrations, walls of force, et al several times per day, not only will every single PC be tempted to take 1 level of wizard just to get all of that(and taking the feat ten times to get 6th level spells really isn't that hard in E6), but you'll completely wreck the balance of your game, and lose the flavor of E6 -- you'll just have "lower level D&D that doesn't work and has a really high death rate".

I'm not trying to be negative here, and I can certainly understand the desire for simplicity, but I'm afraid your solution will result in a wrecked campaign, so I'm trying to give the best advice I can.

If you look at the feat again, you'll notice it can only be taken a maximum of 5 times. The highest level spellcaster in the campaign will only be equivalent to an 11th level Wiz, minus the attendant hp, saves, bonus feats, etc. And unless they somehow get their Int up to a 22, you're looking at a max of 1 6th lvl spell a day for the most powerful Wiz in the campaign (2 for a specialist). And of course, that Wiz will be shy 5 feats of metamagic, toughness, etc.
Here's an NPC, 6th level plus 10 feats (50,000 xp):
Gansley, Elf Fig4/Wiz2, AC17, hp37, CG, Atk melee+8 (longsword+1, dmg1d8+3) ranged+10(longbow, dmg1d8), Init+7, Move30’, Fort+4 Ref+6 Will+4, Str13, Dex16, Con11, Int15, Wiz10, Cha11; Skills Jump+8, Climb+8, Intimidate+6, Spot+5, Search+3, Hide+8, Spellcraft+4, Concentration+8; Feats Weapon Focus(longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword), Advanced Magic (x3), Armored Casting, Combat Casting, Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Extend Spell, Lightning Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus(longbow), Empower Spell, Toughness;
Equipment +1 Longsword, Elven Cloak, Elven Boots, MW Longbow, MW Chain Shirt, Wand of Flaming Spheres (CL5).
Spells (4/4/3/1): 0-mage hand, prestidigitation, light, detect magic; 1st-sleep, charm person, true strike, floating disk; 2nd- levitate, knock, shield(extended); 3rd- Displacement.

Hardly a campaign wrecker, especially not next to the raging 6th level barbarian with 2 attacks per round!

 

[Kunimatyu]

Hardly a campaign wrecker, especially not next to the raging 6th level barbarian with 2 attacks per round!

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here, I think -- that elf is for all intents and purposes a gestalt character, and you're touting it as balanced with a Barbarian 6.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

that elf is for all intents and purposes a gestalt character

Indeed.

And, Gestalt characters are the best solution that I've seen for creating "gish" characters. If I get to run E6 (probably in 4E), I'd like to try it with gestalts.