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E6: The Game Inside D&D

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joela

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Returning to the inspiration

rycanada said:
I certainly can't see an E6 character going up against a Concordant Killer, or a Titan, and winning.

If E6 is based on literary fantasy, how'd such characters deal with similar foes? One could view the Call of Cthulhu stories as the ultimate mismatch between heroes and antagonists.
 

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Ry

Explorer
Well, if a Titan has meteor swarm, and almost 400 hitpoints, the ability to fly at will, greater dispel magic, and so on... then I can't think of an example of a character going up against one in literature.

Just like a high-level character is overbuilt and clunky representation of a fantasy hero, a monster like a Titan is an overbuilt and clunky representation of, say, Goliath.
 
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Ry

Explorer
Also, if you're looking at Call of Cthulhu then you're definitely talking about different circumstances compared to D&D. Those antagonists aren't monsters to fight like they are in D&D; and if you're not supposed to fight them directly, I think that's the ultimate change in circumstances.
 

rom90125

First Post
I guess I could attempt to show my group that E6 would work against higher CR critters by running a one shot with 6th lvl characters taking on CR10 critters and ending the adventure with a BBEG dragon (minus the HD)....
 

Ry

Explorer
That sounds like a good exercise Rom. How many players do you have? I'd love to do something like, make up some E6 iconics and a short adventure to show off the system.
 

Ry

Explorer
New attempt at explaining this right, since I'm 90% sure that joela and I don't actually disagree, it's just an apparent disagreement because I'm glossing things over:

For the GM

E6 isn't just a change for the players: Monsters are presented differently than in d20. Just as level 6 parties in D&D aren’t expected to tangle with monsters higher than CR 10, the mighty monsters of E6 require special consideration for presentation in-game. E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats under the same circumstances as high-level D&D characters; those creatures, if they are defeatable at all, require the kind of resources and planning far beyond the typical D&D encounter.

In terms of raw rules, CR 7-10 monsters are an excellent guide for what E6 characters can handle. Beyond that, a DM should take CR 7-10 monsters and use feats (and to a lesser extent templates) to advance them. Hit die or class-based advancement beyond CR 10, or base monsters above CR 10 should generally be avoided as straight-up fights.

Of course, not every monstrous encounter is a straight-up fight. For example, insane horrors from another age might be a reason to run, and there is little a character could do in the face of an angry Titan. But these situations don’t call for direct confrontation, except with some special resource or amazing circumstance. Perhaps, in a special ritual with the presence of 20 mages, a Titan can be bound to the mortal realm (lowering its stats to an Aspect of Kord), with whom the players can do battle. Again, that's far from a straight-up fight with a CR 20 creature, but we can console ourselves with the fact that this is an awesome encounter.
 
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joela

First Post
Viewpoint

rycanada said:
New attempt at explaining this right, since I'm 90% sure that joela and I don't actually disagree, it's just an apparent disagreement because I'm glossing things over:

Disagree? Nope, not by a longshot.I'm just looking at other resources that give E6 PCs a semblance of power to take on high-end regular DnD antagonists like a Titan. Example: There's a ritual in the SSS supplement, Relics & Rituals, that'll bind even a demigod. While the requirements include being a minimum level of 7 or 9 (I can't remember which right now) to use it, that could be either handwaved or by doubling (or quadrupling!) the rest of the requirements like the minimum number of characters/XPs/gold/etc. needed to cast the spell.

Other methods to dealing with a Titan head on is to pursuade an equally powerful being to take it on/grant the PCs enough temporary power to fight the Titan directly/location of a fantasy mecha/know the enemy Titan's weak spot (i.e., roll Fort. save, no modifiers, die if fail), etc.

From my perspective, high level DnD PCs are superheroes/minor demi-gods; they have all their fantastic abilities/powers all the time.

But what if they don't have access to those powers most of the time? That's where E6, to me, works beautiful: most of the time the PCs are incredible capable but mortal. But compare a E6+3 PC versus a 9th level PC, with the latter possessing all those extra hps, BAB, etc., of its class (never mind "appropriate" magic items at that level!) and the power gap is too extreme.
 

Ry

Explorer
I rewrote the last paragraph in light of your comment just now:

Of course, not every monstrous encounter is a straight-up fight. For example, insane horrors from another age might be a reason to run, and there is little a character could do in the face of an angry Titan. But these situations don’t call for direct confrontation, except with some special resource or amazing circumstance. Perhaps, in a special ritual with the presence of 20 mages, a Titan can be bound to the mortal realm (lowering its stats to an Aspect of Kord), with whom the players can do battle. Again, that's far from a straight-up fight with a CR 20 creature, but we can console ourselves with the fact that it's probably a very memorable encounter.
 

rom90125

First Post
rycanada said:
That sounds like a good exercise Rom. How many players do you have? I'd love to do something like, make up some E6 iconics and a short adventure to show off the system.

I have 6 regular players in my group, plus 4 more in another group in which I am the 5th PC.
 

joela

First Post
Memorable

rycanada said:
but we can console ourselves with the fact that it's probably a very memorable encounter.

Virtually every player, including myself, remembers their so-called "lower level" adventures against a party of orcs or other, similar, creature and how nail-biting it was to survive. I think E6 can maintain a similar feel in DnD w/o resorting to save-or-die spells or mega-damage ;)
 

Ry

Explorer
joela said:
Virtually every player, including myself, remembers their so-called "lower level" adventures against a party of orcs or other, similar, creature and how nail-biting it was to survive. I think E6 can maintain a similar feel in DnD w/o resorting to save-or-die spells or mega-damage ;)

That's exactly the idea - mega damage and save-or-die don't make for more exciting encounters. When you're targeted with save-or-die, or hit for 1d20+500 damage, you're not nervous for longer than the time it takes to roll 1 die.
 


Dragonblade275

First Post
rycanada said:
That sounds like a good exercise Rom. How many players do you have? I'd love to do something like, make up some E6 iconics and a short adventure to show off the system.
I'd LOVE to see that, Ry. I think that's something that's needed for E6.
 

Aage

First Post
This rules are great, I'm gonna try to get my people to try them, at E8 though...

Would be interesting to try and create the fellowship of the ring using these rules...
 

Ioreck

First Post
The only problem is that the fighter is even worse under this system - the one feature he has over others, mass amounts of feats, becomes worthless after a while. barbarians can overwhelm them, and a warblade would stll be a better choice (even without bonus damage and such).

If you just cutoff at level 6, then sure, a fighter would still rock - lots more feats. But granting them every 5k xp after is too much...

Why not grant them, and ability adjustments, as normal? hit a certain exp, gain a +1 to an ability, another get a feat, etc.
 

wolfpunk

First Post
If you look in the DMG for calculating experience, a CR 14 creature provides experience points for a 6-7th level party, this means that while extremely challenging it should be possible to win. Not too mention that assumes a party of four characters, but what about parties of 5 or more players.

It seems to me (and this is just opinion) that players that complain about monsters being too hard, just don't want their characters to die. It seems to me that a party that trusted their dm could have a blast.

I mean, when we play normal d&d we trust the dm to not put our 6th level characters up against challenges they have no chance against, why would playing E6 change that?
 


Dragonblade275

First Post
Ioreck said:
The only problem is that the fighter is even worse under this system - the one feature he has over others, mass amounts of feats, becomes worthless after a while. barbarians can overwhelm them, and a warblade would stll be a better choice (even without bonus damage and such).

If you just cutoff at level 6, then sure, a fighter would still rock - lots more feats. But granting them every 5k xp after is too much...
I see your point, here, Ioreck. Eventually, the fighter is only ahead of SOME of the characters in terms of BAB or Fort Save. There has to be a way for fighters to improve ESPECIALLY if we're going to consider allowing casters to gain extra spell slots and/or improved caster level(s) via feats. More on this in the E6 Feats Thread.
 


wolfpunk

First Post
Idea for Fighters.

Starting at third level a fighter may choose to add half of her fighter levels rounded up to one the following: Dodge bonus to AC, Insight bonus to Attack Rolls, or an Insight Bonus to Damage Rolls. The fighter may choose when to apply the bonus during a fight, but may not change their choice during that encounter.


Of course, this was something I thought of when I was thinking of allowing fighters to advance to seventh level if it was their races favored class. That would give a +4 bonus which I thought was decent, a +3 bonus for fifth level would be good though I think.
 

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