Eadric et. al. (The Paladin and his Friends).

[Justin]

"No, Eadric, my friend... the cult of Cheshne just wants to enter Wyre to construct a grand basilica to lord Oronthon!"

I've got five words for you: The Left Eye of Palamabron.

 

[sithramir]

Sithramir: the text of Divine Metamagic doesn't say you have to have the feat. You can have Divine Metamagic (Extend) without having the Extend feat.

It's kinda funny when a non-cleric can be criticized for "only" having 22 uses of Rebuke Undead. Although I can see where you are coming from; DM will burn through those 22 uses awfully quickly. But it's like criticizing a character for "only" having 600 hp. Or saying an item is too cheap at "only" 2 million gp. It just seems funny to me. Such are the peculiarities of epic play.

I really need to invest in a MM3, I think.

Yes 22 uses seems a lot until you think about the fact that one Quicken spell using Divine Metamagic costs 1 Turn Attempt + 4 Turns for the Quicken (unless he's got lowered epic metamagic feats which he doesn't in this case). So that's 5 turn attempts which comes out to 4 quickened spells and he's out. Removing the Divine Metamagic (Twin Spell) and changing it to just Quicken Spell could be more useful OR if he took the bonus turn attempts he'd get 4 more to a total of 26. This would allow him a whole other quickened spell. Or maybe he removed extend and kept Twin, etc.

I get that you would use the Divine Metamagics to allow as much immediate flexibility as possible but it's really limited to the number of uses. It's one battle and he's out and all he did was quicken a few spells. Taking quicken spell and using it with slots for the lower level spells would be more useful than havine 4 of those feats. He could then use his turns to empower or twin other spells (or quicken more spells later). Maybe I shouldn't be in Min/Max mode but I think taking just Extend Spell or Quicken spell could potentially be more benefitial to the character without any huge loss.

I suppose I need to hear Sep's opinion of why he chose them to get it. It may be a reason i'm not thinking. And I don't have my books while on vacation but I SWEAR they errata'd or had a change that said you need to have the metamagic feat to take Divine Metamagic. I actually recall it saying something like "You cannot take this feat without having first taken the metamagic feat as a prerequisite". If not then I'd, personally, require it since the INTENT is to allow a cleric to spontaneously boost his spells using turn attempts for free. Why should he be able to do this without any real "knowledge" of how to quicken a spell?

Can he spontaneously cast an empowered cure spell without having empower spell? I suppose if he can then this feat works in a similar fashion. Either way MY kick-a$$ necromantic sorcerous Rakhasha would have slightly different feats so NYAH NYAh or something like that

 

[Cheiromancer]

Sithramir, you're right!

Do you need to have the specific metamagic feat you
wish to apply to a spell to use the Divine Metamagic feat?
For example, to quicken a spell with Divine Metamagic do
you need to have the Quicken Spell feat?
Yes. This was clarified by the official errata to Complete
Divine published in September, 2004, (new text underlined):
“When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you
have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat.” You can
find all official errata at <www.wizards.com/dnd>.

This should take that silly rakshasa down a notch!

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Wow! Can it be that Divine Metamagic isn't in fact broken? That's a shame.

I don't tend to pay attention to errata to optional supplements. I'll switch out DM (Extend) and DM (Twin) for Empower and Quicken respectively. I let sorcerers Quicken spells without penalty anyway.

Don't worry, they'll never know

 

[Cheiromancer]

Sep, double check those feats. I think Extend/Empower may have gotten swapped.

It looks to me like our heroes have dealt with a demon prince only to be faced with 11 entities of comparable power. Scary stuff!

 

[sithramir]

Wow! Can it be that Divine Metamagic isn't in fact broken? That's a shame.

I don't tend to pay attention to errata to optional supplements. I'll switch out DM (Extend) and DM (Twin) for Empower and Quicken respectively. I let sorcerers Quicken spells without penalty anyway.

Don't worry, they'll never know

Two things:

1) I just realized you're using Divine Metamagic for a sorcerer. I suppose you're assuming you can use this on arcane spells?

The feat reads:
DIVINE METAMAGIC [DIVINE]
You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful.

Now the actual Benefit just says you can apply this to spells that you know but the first sentence description does state that it's divine spells. I suppose you can rule it doesn't have to be divine spells but I think it loses the intent of the feat since it does state Divine spells at the beginning.

I'd hate to somehow knock down you're Rakhasha any further.

2) How do you rule for quickening of spells with Sorcerer's? Unearthed Arcane has a variant rule where you can quicken spells equal to 3 + your int modifier per day and you don't get a familiar. We use this variant but how do you do it? I think just allowing them to consistently do it even taking the modified level is too powerful. Has this worked well in your game or what do you do different?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Two things:

Sith, I appreciate the input, but this isn't the rules forum, and I've never claimed to run a strict, by-the-book campaign. I could go back and pick a million holes in character and monster stats that have appeared in this thread, but honestly, life's too short.

As for sorcerers - I just let them quicken spells. Never had a problem. There again, all the sorcerers are NPCs.

Game design is one thing - I think a high degree of rigour is desirable. But when I play? Never - I'm much sloppier. I play for fun. Most NPCs are sets of scrawled notes which are half-finished until I post them here.

 

[Lela]

Sep, double check those feats. I think Extend/Empower may have gotten swapped.

Looks like it is to me. Still, I'll just re upload when he decides what he wants.

Speaking of which, check attachment. I know the picture doesn't quite match but it's what you can get off d20srd.org.

 

[Cheiromancer]

From a rules perspective, sithramir is again correct.

Originally posted by the Complete Divine errata

Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat
The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit
paragraph of the feat description:
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that
you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat.
As a free action, you can take the energy from turning
or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat
to divine spells that you know. . . .

However in the case of an Ak'Chazar Rakshasa, who have innate sorcerous ability *and* the ability to rebuke undead, I think a feat that allows them to synergize these abilities would be more than appropriate.

After all, that's really the point of Divine Metamagic; a cleric casts spells and turns/rebukes undead; why not have a feat that allows those two abilities to synergize? A multiclass character draws on different sources of power, and so there is no particular reason for the two abilities to work together. But if there were a class that combines turn/rebuke undead with arcane spellcasting, I think there should be a version of DM for them.

So technically it isn't Divine Metamagic that Temenun uses, but "Ak'Chazar Metamagic" - which works just like Divine Metamagic, except that an Ak'Chazar rakshasa can use it to boost his sorcerer spells.

The bit about sorcerers and metamagic is kinda dumb in the case of Quicken; I think the effect of Quicken should trump the increased casting time. But I still can't remember the difference between one full round and one round casting time, so I'm hardly an authority. Still, I think it is an eminently sensible house rule.

Temenun raises other questions for me, though:

Should it be a goal for our Epic Magic project that these characters (and particularly their epic spells) should exist at roughly the same level of power? I'm been very reluctant to allow items that boost one's ability to cast epic spells (virtual skill ranks or whatever), but I don't think Temenun would be the same without his artifacts.

Mind you, I'd nerf the disjunction/holy word combo, too, so the relative challenge would probably remain about the same.

What LA do you use for DvR0? Those divine immunities are pretty sweet- indeed, essential to epic play. I'm not quite happy with the ideas we've floated for slotless items of mind blank, death ward, and whatever it is that protects against ability damage/drain.

[edit] Nice pdf! The skulls and stuff suggest a necromantic focus very well. The only discrepancy would be that Temenun would have a white tiger head, right? And be a bit skinnier.

 

[Lela]

[edit] Nice pdf!

Thanks! I figured I was making it for myself. Might as well use the attach feature.