Eberron and the Book of Revelation

[Kai Lord]

So one part of the setting bears some superficial resemblance to that particular biblical story, so what? The meaning is totally different.

Duly noted and it bears repeating. The meaning of those images is not the same as those in the Bible, at least as its explained by the ECS (unless that is indeed what the "world shattering struggle" was all about, but I think its pretty safe to say it wasn't.)

You would never play a dragonmarked character because you attribute this meaning from the bible into the game? You would even change the three dragons meanings to all be evil satanic devils?

If I go ahead and play in Eberron, yes to both questions. The reason is the imagery. I personally believe imagery is a powerful thing. I think when you take the image of something inherently evil and immerse yourself with an alternate "good" meaning, then after a while it becomes easier to accept the original meaning in a more favorable light. I'm speaking in broad strokes here, in an attempt to post within board rules.

Sounds like a pretty dismal world to live in.

Fair enough if you feel that way. I'm on the other side of the fence. A world with "good" super dragons and dragonmarks but the same hopeless afterlife for all is much more dismal to me.

I don't know about you but gaming in some pseudo post-Christian rapture world seems like a total bummer.

It would definitely be a struggle! At least until the "return of the King." But that was just one possibility. The other for me is playing in Eberron but just throwing out the entire concept of its progenitor dragons and dragonmarks. But really I just threw that out there to shed more light on where I'm coming from; that is the position of a Christian who does indeed game and is not about to condemn others who do the same.

Even if I was a devout Christian as I assume you are, I think I would still draw a big thick line between fantasy worlds and anything having to do with my own real world religious beliefs.

As far as having a line between what's real and what's fantasy I wholeheartedly agree. Its the nature of the fantasy element and its visual representation that I was taking a specific look at.

 

[WayneLigon]

I think when you take the image of something inherently evil and immerse yourself with an alternate "good" meaning, then after a while it becomes easier to accept the original meaning in a more favorable light. I'm speaking in broad strokes here, in an attempt to post within board rules.

So there are no good dragons in your world, whatsoever? No silver, gold, whatever, just because it's a dragon?

 

[Turanil]

I’m curious as to what others think of Eberron’s symbolism, whether you agree or disagree, and how you see it as affecting your campaigns, if at all.

It happens all the time. One reads books over books, forgetting what he did read before, then one day he is proud of his own creation only to later discover the idea already had been done before. This not only happens with games, but with literacy, movie, painting, etc. I would say it is imposible to prevent. To create something, you must be well read - knowledgeable in that area, and want it or not, your inspiration will come from many things together you already saw before. In some cases you redo something almost identical without being aware of it.

 

[Kai Lord]

So there are no good dragons in your world, whatsoever? No silver, gold, whatever, just because it's a dragon?

Not only that, I don't even have any good magic in my world. Pretty crazy huh?

I haven't always done this mind you, but the more I've studied the Bible over the years the more certain elements of D&D end up getting repainted to suit my convictions. But that's just me and where my heart's at on the matter.

I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone adopt my style of play, because I'm hardly the benchmark anyone should set their standards to. I just wanted to say "hey, anyone notice this? Here's what I think, what about you guys?" and then let people draw their own conclusions and make their own decisions.

EDIT: Oh and I do have silver and gold dragons in my world (currently a Dragonlance campaign), but they just pretend to be good....

 

[Khairn]

Kai, I think your analysis is really interesting although I disagree with you conclusion.

I wouldn't be too shocked to find out that Revelations (the most mis-understood and poorly interpreted book in the Bible) had an impact on some of Keith Baker's idea's.

 

[Michael Tree]

I’m curious as to what others think of Eberron’s symbolism, whether you agree or disagree, and how you see it as affecting your campaigns, if at all.

It's an interesting parallel, but a bit of a stretch IMO. It won't affect my campaign at all, but it's an intellectual curiosity.

However... did you notice that after the three dragons appear and fight their cataclysmic battle, there proceeds a 10 million year age of demons, where demons and monstrosities walked the earth and ruled it, until the forces of good defeated the demon horde, and trapped them within the depths of the earth?

 

[Jakar]

To me it is just a game. :\

Reading any more into it is a little way over the top for me, although I am a very nonreligious person.

 

[Psion]

First off, I would not be at all surprised if elements of Eberron -- or any fantasy RPG setting -- were derived from the Bible (or in particular, Revalations and the Old Testament.) The Bible is probably the most influential work in western society, and intentionally or unintentionally, elements of the Bible work their way into all sorts of works. Fantasy RPGs settings are places where you could take some of the more symbolic elements at face value and have them "fit", as it were. I think if you look around a little, you will find this is hardly the first riff of Revalations in fantasy.

Whether or not you use that as a key to what you will and will not play is a rather personal decision. I personally don't see any problem with playing Dragonmarked characters; I consider the connection to the Bible so tenuous and so obviously a flight of fancy that to me it would be the equivalent of literally hoarding lamp oil because the Savior suggested it.

But I pass no judgement on those who do not feel comfortable toying with aspects of their spiritual life they find objectionable. I personally wouldn't hesitate to play a wizard or sorcerer character just because the Bible is telling me not to consult with wizards that peep and that I should not suffer a sorcerer to live. But by the same token, I don't toy with Ouja boards or Tarot cards because that is something that is more literally against my beliefs.

The "there are no good dragons" is an interesting take, but one that, while it seems unusual to D&D, is entirely consistent with the way dragons are depicted in western culture. In the Slayer's Guide to Dragons, Gygax discusses how he designed chromatic Dragons to fit the western beleif systems regarding dragons, whilst metallic dragons were conceived to represent a more eastern take on dragons. Do I beleive that in doing so, Gygax was teaching something contrary to his religious beliefs? (Gygax is Christian, Jehevah's Witness to be exact, from what I hear) No. Because his work is not a religious text or sermon. It's a game.

 

[Smokingmonkee]

Similarities noted. To quickly dismiss the similarities is unwise. To presume that the similarities are intentional is a stretch. To be aware of the similarities and insure that you don't offend someones beliefs is smart and respectful.

-Swiftbrook

also a Christian who plays D&D

I agree with Swiftbrook on all counts. It's an intriguing observation and you should sensitive to others beliefs and show respect is also very important.

-Smokingmonkee

I too am a D&D playing Christian

 

[Wormwood]

I consider myself a devout Catholic, with an abiding interest in Christian symbology.

But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.