ECL after chracter creation

[kreynolds]

Is there a rules quote for that?

Did I say it was a rule?

 

[hammymchamham]

Did I say it was a rule?

Nope, then again, their is no rule on what to do

 

[kreynolds]

Nope...

Exactly. From Hawkeye's post, I thought he was asking me a question from one DM to another...

Kreynolds: If you have a party

See?

...then again, their is no rule on what to do

Exactly. The closest thing I ever found (and it isn't even that close) was the text in the description of Polymorph Other (not reincarnate, as I mentioned above). I think it was in the third to last paragraph of the description. It's where its talking about disorientation.

 

[magnas_veritas]

Do you mean like a Paladin Werebear? If so, then yes. You need to play catch-up (more xp to equal your ECL) in order to level again.

That's how we did it when it came up in our game. Otherwise it's not particularly fair to the other players.

Brad

 

[kreynolds]

That's how we did it when it came up in our game. Otherwise it's not particularly fair to the other players.

Yup. In regards to templates with low ECL modifiers, say if its only +1 or +2, it's not such a big deal (but still worth taking into account). Anything larger is not only unfair, but also unbalancing from a party level standpoint. Say you have a party (four people) of 4th level characters. The average party level is 4. If one of those party members gets a template or race change with a +6 ECL modifier, then everything gets knocked outta whack if you decide to charge them the level difference and treat them as a 10th level character. Even with three 4th level characters and one 10th level character, they're average party level is only raised up to a 5 (5.5 to be exact). So, you have to raise the difficulty of encounters to challenge them. The problem is that you can't properly challenge the 10th level player and the 4th level players at the same time. Throw a EL10 encounter at the party and there's a really good chance that the 4th level players will be overwhelmed, if not outright killed. Lower the difficulty to an EL5 or 6, to properly challenge the 4th level players, and the 10th level player will just walk through it without a problem.

If you don't charge for the ECL mod, then the only thing that changes is that the character with the template (or whatever) will level just as fast as he was leveling before, but you still have to face the problems previously mentioned anyway.

 

[LokiDR]

Yup. In regards to templates with low ECL modifiers, say if its only +1 or +2, it's not such a big deal (but still worth taking into account). Anything larger is not only unfair, but also unbalancing from a party level standpoint. Say you have a party (four people) of 4th level characters. The average party level is 4. If one of those party members gets a template or race change with a +6 ECL modifier, then everything gets knocked outta whack if you decide to charge them the level difference and treat them as a 10th level character. Even with three 4th level characters and one 10th level character, they're average party level is only raised up to a 5 (5.5 to be exact). So, you have to raise the difficulty of encounters to challenge them. The problem is that you can't properly challenge the 10th level player and the 4th level players at the same time. Throw a EL10 encounter at the party and there's a really good chance that the 4th level players will be overwhelmed, if not outright killed. Lower the difficulty to an EL5 or 6, to properly challenge the 4th level players, and the 10th level player will just walk through it without a problem.

If you don't charge for the ECL mod, then the only thing that changes is that the character with the template (or whatever) will level just as fast as he was leveling before, but you still have to face the problems previously mentioned anyway.

I agree with your math. I just don't believe that a DM should apply ECL modifieres in game because of the problems. Think of the player who gets a whole lot of new abilites at 4th level, and NOTHING for another 6. Think of the other players who were balanced, then are horribly outclassed for several levels. I think it takes a lot of fun out of the game and leads to resentment.

How many here have seen greater artifacts used in game? The ECL question seems much the same.

 

[kreynolds]

I agree with your math.

The math wasn't the point.

I just don't believe that a DM should apply ECL modifieres in game because of the problems.

The point is that no matter what, whether you enforce the ECL modifier or not, you're going to face the exact same problem, which is that the player with the ECL template (or whatever) is going to be more powerful than everyone else.

Think of the player who gets a whole lot of new abilites at 4th level, and NOTHING for another 6.

I am. What about them? He got 6 levels worth of junk right now, so why should he be complaining?

Think of the other players who were balanced, then are horribly outclassed for several levels.

Right, so don't hand out the template unless you're prepared for it. If you've planned for it, go right ahead.

I think it takes a lot of fun out of the game and leads to resentment.

Think about how much resentment you'll end up with when you don't penalize that player at all for taking the Paragon template. Eventually, someone will freak when he levels along with the rest of the party. So, I ask, which one is worse? Making the player catch up or giving it out for free while the other players get nothing?

How many here have seen greater artifacts used in game?

Greater arfiacts tend to be DM tools anyway, mostly as plot devices. They only work when, how, why, and if the DM wishes it. There are no rules behind artifacts that players can depend on. They aren't gear. They aren't treasure. They aren't equipment. They aren't spoils of war. They aren't tools to be used by the players. They're for the DM, not the player.

The ECL question seems much the same.

Apparently, it happens a lot. If I had a nickel for every time this discussion was brought up on these and other boards...well, you get the idea.

 

[LokiDR]

I agree that, if a player is going to keep an ECL modifier of a large amount (more than 1 or 2), they should buy it off.

But these are extreem cases, not accidents. Any DM that does this should be prepared for the result. For the common ECL modifiers, like reincarnate, template from going through a class, or lycanthropy, I don't think the DM should make the player pay off the ECL. The only exception I can see is lycanthropy of the same, or near-same alignment as you have. Even then, I would encourage the character to be rid of the disease rather than making the change perminent and buy off the ECL.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I don't add the ecl in game. If someone gets a nice piece of treasure I don't add a ecl(that's why I give balanced treasure), and to me this is the same thing. Self inflicted ecl things like becoming a lich have a cost which compensates for the benefits.(you'll be down a lot of equipment if you become a lich which balances it as is)

 

[kreynolds]

Any DM that does this should be prepared for the result.

Like I said.

For the common ECL modifiers, like reincarnate, template from going through a class, or lycanthropy, I don't think the DM should make the player pay off the ECL.

They should pay it off if its beneficial to them.

The only exception I can see is lycanthropy of the same, or near-same alignment as you have.

This would be beneficial.

If a template is so bad that it shouldn't count against the character, then that means the character is a breath away from becoming an NPC anyway, such as with lycanthropy. If a Paladin gets lycanthropy form a werewolf, there is no doubt that he would want to cure himself anyway. I understand what you mean by wanting to encourage the player to cure himself rather than making the change permanent, but if that paladin becomes evil, then he's now an NPC, so his ECL doesn't really matter anymore.

Even if you're reincarnated, if the ECL adjusting template or race you get is something that can remain in play, meaning you don't have to give it up because its not playable, like a vampire or werewolf in a Good aligned game, then the character should pay.

If you're not going to charge another player for a +6 ECL race or template that he gets to keep, then be prepared to give me 6 levels of fighter for free.