ECL and recommended character wealth?

[snarfoogle]

If I were to start a 1st level Githyanki fighter in a party of 3rd level characters, do I include my LA+2 and start off with 2,700 gold, or get a 1st level fighter's starting cash? It seems to me that it'd leave my character severely underpowered if I didn't get the third level cash.

 

[Pax]

When the GM says "make 3d level characetrs", wha6t that *means*, by the rules, is "make characters with 2,700gp of equipment and cash, and with 3,000XP".

If the PC wizard wants to have personally scribed some scrolls, he pays the XP out of that total, and won't be QUITE third level.

If the PC fighter has a +2 level-adjusted race, he still gets the 2700gp.

 

[Pinotage]

Different Question

Apologies for hijacking the thread, but it's on a similar topic

Let's take a LA +6 creature with 4 HD for argument's sake. Now create an NPC with that with 5 class levels, giving an ECL of 15. According to the rules, it should have 59k worth of gear. But, let's say, as is often the case, the creature only ends up being a CR 10. Given it's CR/EL is should only give 5800 gp. Which one do you use?

Pinotage

 

[Thanee]

I'd use ECL.

CR is only a value to derive experience points and encounter levels.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pinotage]

Agree

I'd use ECL.

CR is only a value to derive experience points and encounter levels.

Bye
Thanee

I'm inclined to agree with that, but my concern lies in then balancing the treasure handout. Since it's CR 10, it's an encounter for 4 level 10 characters. Given that treasure values rise from 49k to 66k between levels 10 and 11, for a party to go from level 10 to level 11 requires 68k plus any resources they expend. It just seems that fighting two such encounters will give too much treasure, but only giving it 5800 gp seems far too little for the ECL.

Pinotage

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, also treasure is normally based on EL, which is derived from CR not ECL.

In the same light, since treasure is based on EL, in a mixed encounter, where some monsters have different treasure than others (i.e. standard and none), it doesn't really work either.

You just have to keep an eye on the global average, if you want to stay close to the numbers (i.e. if some encounters give more treasure than they should according to the treasure values per encounter table, then just use others that give less to balance it out).

But the NPC wealth is based on the level of the NPC IIRC (don't have the book here, and I doubt this table is included in the SRD, or at least I wouldn't know where ), so ECL makes more sense than CR.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Knight Otu]

Which one do you use?

The official rule is to use ECL

If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of “By character class” receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.

 

[Tav_Behemoth]

I finally got the 3.5 DMG and it seems to me to support level adjustment, not ECL per se -- this wouldn't be the first example in my experience where it's harder to figure things out using just the SRD (or where the books contradict themselves in places).

The drow Wizard 5 shown as an example on page 125 has five character levels, a LA of +1, an ECL of 6, and a CR of 6. Seems to me she has about 5,600 in gear, like a 6th-level NPC according to table 4-23.

Because the drow's ECL consists only of character levels + LA, this doesn't directly relate to a minotaur with one level of barbarian. The main possibilities I see are:

a) 2,500 gp (1 character level, +2 LA = 3rd-level NPC based on levels)?
b) 4,300 gp (CR 4 for monster + 1 CR for character level = 5th lvl NPC based on CR)?
c) 12,000 gp (1 character level, +2 LA, 6 HD = 9th lvl NPC based on ECL)?
​

Table 3-3 says an EL 5 encounter should yield 1,600 gp, and p. 55 says a NPC's gear is about 3x the average for a monster of its CR. 3 x 1,600 = 4,800, pretty close to b), and using CR to determine NPC gear value is consistent with the example of the drow wizard.

Adding gear to a NPC clearly makes it tougher. The DMG says that the extra reward compensates for the extra challenge. But it seems to me that a first-level minotaur barbarian is going to wipe the floor with a 5th level party if based on its ECL, it's got 12K of toys to play with. And any party members that survive are likely to have more treasure than they should.

So I think CR, not ECL, is the way to go; the SRD is confused because the two are more or less the same for NPCs that don't have racial hit dice.

 

[Pax]

Like I said above. When the GM says "Make characters of X level", what the *rules* have decreed that means is, "make characters with X experience points and Y gold pieces".

Afte that point in time, it doesn't matter what *race* you select ... your starting XP and GP are *already yours*.

 

[dcollins]

...But it seems to me that a first-level minotaur barbarian is going to wipe the floor with a 5th level party if based on its ECL, it's got 12K of toys to play with. And any party members that survive are likely to have more treasure than they should.

So I think CR, not ECL, is the way to go; the SRD is confused because the two are more or less the same for NPCs that don't have racial hit dice.

Well, as posted above, by the current rules, a minotaur needs to have its gear calculated by ECL, not anything else.

If you want to talk about how it "should" be I have long maintained that the most consistent procedure is to award NPC gear based on class levels only -- the way it was originally in the 3.0 DMG. The later change created exactly the kinds of problems you're identifying.