ECL, Feats and Ability Increases...

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

If, after adding a class level to such a monster PC, the total number of HD is divisible by 3, the PC gains a new feat. The same goes for ability increases, when the number of HD is divisible by 4.
A 14 HD Stone Giant PC gets 4 feats (a giant starts with 1 feat and gains 1 per 4 EHD, he has 12 EHD), not 5. After gaining 1 class level, he has 15 HD, which is divisible by 3, so he gains a new feat. Adding another level brings him to 16 HD, divisible by 4, so he gets an ability increase.

Care to provide a reference for this? Because it is flat wrong.

A stone giant Ranger 1 gets stone giant feats, 1 feat for being a Level 1 character. A stone giant ranger gets his next bonus feat at Ranger level 3. He gets his first ability bonus at ranger level 4.

This is clearly explained on page 21 of the FRCS. You use ECL for experience and gold, you use actual class levels for "everything else".

 

[thundershot]

Head... spinning... not sure... what is... correct anymore...

<pulls out the FR book>

Page 289 seems to be the only page that deals with creatures who have Hit Dice... and it doesn't say anything about feats and ability score increases.

Unless someone else has the magic page number I need to read...?


Chris

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Alright... Never mind...

I foudn it in the FRCS, and answered my own question.

Only "real" character levels count towards gaining feats and ability increases.

Think of it this way... ECL levels don't actually increase your character's level, they only increase the amount of XP it takes to gain a level. For example, an Aasimar Paladin requires 2000 XP before he makes 2nd level. A Human Paladin only requires 1000 XP. When the Assimar obtains those 2000 XP, however, he is still a 2nd level character, not a 3rd.

Check the Lycathrope examples in the Monster Manual... They are all +3 ECLs built off of 1st level Human Commoners.

 

[Ketjak]

Kobolds!

What I gotta wonder is: does a kobold SOR 1 get the Alertness feat AND the feat for a first-level character, or just the 1st-level feat, or just Alertness?

What hit die do they use?

- Ketjak

 

[thundershot]

Yes, in THAT you are correct. No one ever argued that. But the problem isn't the ECL, it's the HIT DICE of the creature. If a creature starts with 3 HD before class levels, when you start him as a level 1 Druid, he's a 4 HD character... does he get an ability score bonus? See what I mean? Or does he have to wait til 4th level (7 HD) before getting that stat bonus?



Chris

 

[thundershot]

Re: Kobolds!

What I gotta wonder is: does a kobold SOR 1 get the Alertness feat AND the feat for a first-level character, or just the 1st-level feat, or just Alertness?

What hit die do they use?

- Ketjak

Kobolds are 1 HD creatures, so you treat them just like any other standard PC race. They use the HD of the class they choose, and can choose a feat as any first level character does. No free Alertness feat.


Chris

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Yes, in THAT you are correct. No one ever argued that. But the problem isn't the ECL, it's the HIT DICE of the creature. If a creature starts with 3 HD before class levels, when you start him as a level 1 Druid, he's a 4 HD character... does he get an ability score bonus? See what I mean? Or does he have to wait til 4th level (7 HD) before getting that stat bonus?

Chris

HD do not matter. He has to wait to reach 4th level (7HD in this case)

 

[thundershot]

That'd be all fine and dandy if I knew exactly where that was in the rules. It has absolutely nothing to do with ECL. The ECL rules give no information as to what to do about Hit Dice + Levels.

The only thing that *I* have found is in the DMG, page 24 (which is before they invented the current ECL system). It says:

"A creature with class levels plus monster levels, such as an ogre, has a character level equal to his monster levels plus his class levels."

Character level is what determines your new feats and ability score changes, so therefore, I would deduce that when the Ogre reaches 2nd level of Druid (6 HD) he would get a new feat.

This will hopefully be explained away when the Tooth & Claw book comes out, but that could be a year or so from now...

Chris

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

You are assuming that HD are relevant.

They are not. There are no rules for using HD because you don't.

HD are part of what determines ECL. But once you have ECL, only class levels and ECL matter.

Base monster HD determine base monster feats, but even that is not on a one per 3HD scheme.

You are equating HD and Level, which is not stated anywhere.
Forget about HD and everything else is fine.

ECL includes all benefits of the base monster, HD, feats, skill point abilities, everything. Once you have that, you start at the level 1 on Table 3-2 of the PH.

Bottom line, even your quote from the (obsolete) DMG reference says not a word about HD. It only refers to "monster levels". There is nothing to indicate that HD = "monster levels". Further it is obvious that they are often NOT equal.

 

[thundershot]

At the very top of page 24 of the DMG, it says "Creatures with Hit Dice of 1 or less have normal, class based Hit Dice and features. Those with 2 or more Hit Dice have statistics based on these Hit Dice plus those for class levels (if any)."

Also, even after the ECL is calculated, you don't use level 1 on the XP chart. You use whatever the ECL is. A first level Ogre (ECL +8, I think) would have 36,000 XP to start (ECL 8 + level one, just like any 9th level character).

I e-mailed the sage for an official ruling, so hopefully I get a response soon.


Chris