ECL, Feats and Ability Increases...

[thundershot]

Well... that page in FRCS just says not to use Hit Dice when determining XP, and that the Hit Dice is already figured into the ECL for that. They leave out the entire feat/ability score stuff completely.

Unfortunately, Tooth & Claw won't be out any time this year...



Chris

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Well... that page in FRCS just says not to use Hit Dice when determining XP, and that the Hit Dice is already figured into the ECL for that. They leave out the entire feat/ability score stuff completely.

Unfortunately, Tooth & Claw won't be out any time this year...

Chris

Heh.

Well, now we have 2 sets of rules that don't agree and a vague reference to competely new internal rulings. Gee thanks.

 

[Soldarin]

Sean's ruling sounds familiar...

Anyway, main reason why just following the FRCS (which fails to define actual level, hence the incompleteness) won't work is that it makes NO sense for max. skill ranks to be based on class levels alone (races that grant HD make that a mess!).

Just thought of that. I knew there was a reason, but feats/ability increases wasn't it.

And no, don't add feats retroactively (maybe I didn't copy enough from my site to include that part).

 

[DM_Matt]

"You're out of order, he's out of order, the whole d*mn system is out of order!!!!!!!!!!"

We REALLY need Tooth & Claw to provide a decent system.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Sean's ruling sounds familiar...

Familiar from your claims, yes. But completely new to anything remotely official. I still consider my interpretation to be correct for what is officially published. Obviously, that does not matter effective Sean's posting. Perhaps, they will change the rules to exactly what you propose. But Sean made it clear that we will not really know for quite a while. But the only thing we now know is that we know less than we did this morning.

Anyway, main reason why just following the FRCS (which fails to define actual level, hence the incompleteness) won't work is that it makes NO sense for max. skill ranks to be based on class levels alone (races that grant HD make that a mess!).

Just thought of that. I knew there was a reason, but feats/ability increases wasn't it.

And no, don't add feats retroactively (maybe I didn't copy enough from my site to include that part).

Well, believe me or not, but I would have agreed with you on the skills part.

 

[thundershot]

I don't know why you're getting so upset about this. It's all about interpretation. I interpreted the rules one way, you did another. By reading it word for word, it's not very clear. Sean cleared it up for us.

Rule 0 still works, though. And you can use whatever rules you wish. Some people probably still use the DMG rules. Some do what you said. Like I said, it's all a matter of interpretation.

I just want Tooth & Claw in my hands.


Chris

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I don't know why you're getting so upset about this. It's all about interpretation. I interpreted the rules one way, you did another. By reading it word for word, it's not very clear. Sean cleared it up for us.

Upset? This is fun.

Though I really disagree that he cleared it up. To me the quotes you gave were a big sign that said, "We were still working on it when I left. Here is a tiny piece as I last saw it."

The comment regarding "bits in the MM and in the DMG" does not even mention FRCS. Being as the concept of ECL does not appear in either of these references, this strikes me as a sign of a significant re-thinking of the approach.

But seriously, I don't come to these boards in my free time to get my blood pressure up. I'll argue aggressively, but I am having FUN!!!

Rule 0 still works, though. And you can use whatever rules you wish. Some people probably still use the DMG rules. Some do what you said. Like I said, it's all a matter of interpretation.

Certainly. And in the end I think the establishment of a balanced ECL for given monsters will be a much bigger challenge and source of controversy.

I don't even think that there is a balance concern regarding the two sides of this debate. I never claimed that using HD would lead to a bad situation. I just am competely convinced it is technically incorrect based on the most recent available published data. Obviously that is now yesterday's news.

I just want Tooth & Claw in my hands.
Chris

Me too.

 

[Nellisir]

...the FRCS (...fails to define actual [monster] level...)

Actually, I found a quote in the FRCS that answers all -my- questions on the topic. Page 289, first column, first line.

"Creatures with more than 1 Hit Die function as multiclassed characters with levels in a favored "racial" class equal to the character's base Hit Dice."

Further down the page, the centaur paladin(1st level) is a "6th level character", not a 1st level character. Feats, ability score increases, and skills are not singled out as being unaffected by this "racial class".

Combined with the monster creation guidelines from Dragon, which give feat & skill acquisition guidelines for the different types of monsters, I think it works.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I don't think anyone has ever disputed what you have stated.

A Rogue 1 Deep gnome is also a 4th level character. But he does not get an ability increase and gets a "1st level" feat in accordance with his class levels only.

So your reference does not resolve the question of when the centaur gains feats and abiltity increases.

The dragon article states that character level is "equal to class levels plus ECLs", which I believe everyone so far agrees to.

It also states "Skill points, feats and abilities increases are based only on class levels." Which is EXACTLY what I have been claiming. (with an acknowledgement regarding issues over max skill ranks).

However, Sean's new quote indicates that this is not true and the HD that contribute to ECLs also impact skill points, feats and abilities as well.

So, per Sean, Dragon 293 (March 2002) is already wrong.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Huh...

..I just knew I wasn´t the only one confused about all this ECL/Monster-classes stuff.

I guess I´ll go back to my old plan to make a monster a PC race, if someone wants to play it, and balance it out at that level. *shrugs*