ECL, Feats and Ability Increases...

[CRGreathouse]

There are no rules for using HD because you don't.

Incorrect. The rules in the DMG use HD.

I think what you're trying to say is that the rules in the FRCS (which are clearly superior to the rules in the DNG in this respect) don't use HD. I agree with this.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Right, but ECLs replace the DMG stuff.

As to starting at level 1 on the PH chart, I thought it was clear that I was not referring to experience points, because that is self-evident. But feats and ability increases DO start at level 1.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Incorrect. The rules in the DMG use HD.

I think what you're trying to say is that the rules in the FRCS (which are clearly superior to the rules in the DNG in this respect) don't use HD. I agree with this.

You are correct. I did not state it well. Mixing the ECL rules with the DMG guidelines can get cause confusion.

 

[melkoriii]

So a PC Monster character can reach Epic lvl stats but still not be epic?

Storm Giant Fighter lvl 20 is still a lvl 20 character.

Hmmm

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

So a PC Monster character can reach Epic lvl stats but still not be epic?

Storm Giant Fighter lvl 20 is still a lvl 20 character.

Hmmm

ECL stands for effective character level, so he would be more than a lvl 20 character.

He would just have the total abilities of a level 20 character plus a storm giant.

I would imagine that if ECL creatures are addressed in the epic level handbook, epic status would likely be included in the short list of things that consider ECL.

But, without the epic rules published there is no telling.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

FWIW

http://pub17.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=40.topic

 

[Soldarin]

The "use HD for equivalent class level" rule comes from the DMG, and was reiterated by Monte. Since the FRCS fails to mention ability increases and feat gains, I suggest you just use the DMG rules for that.

We can argue long and hard about this, but the point is, the DMG rules are less than perfect, and the FRCS ones are incomplete. If you combine them, you get what I said before. Since this isn't stated in the rule books, however, it remains up to the DM to decide which he uses. Most important thing is to choose one guideline and stick with it.

Personally I think the "Use HD for equivalent class level, except for starting gold, starting xp and level advancement" is the most elegant solution.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Since the FRCS fails to mention ability increases and feat gains, I suggest you just use the DMG rules for that.

We can argue long and hard about this, but the point is, the DMG rules are less than perfect, and the FRCS ones are incomplete.

Incomplete?

I think you need to really bend over backward to not consider the definition of "everything else" to include ability increases and feat gains.

The most elegant solution is to simply follow the guidelines as presented in FRCS.

If your assessment were correct, then all monsters would also get feats for every 3 HD they have, which is not correct.

 

[thundershot]

Okay, here's the answer I got from Sean Reynolds, who was partially responsible for the FRCS.

Me: Do you or do you not count the creature's HIT DICE when figuring out how many feats/ability increases a monster PC gets? I realize the ECL doesn't affect it, but I could swear that the hit dice did.

Sean: Give the creature the normal feats for its monster hit dice, and after that (once you add class levels) use its total HD (base plus classes) to determine abil increases and feats. So, a mind flayer with no classes starts play with 5 feats and 8 HD (just like the MM mind flayer). Add a level of anything an the mind flayer has 9 total HD, which means it gets another feat. At class level 4 it has 12 hit dice, which means it gets a feat and an ability score increase.

Me: Either way, where would this information be located?

Sean: There are bits of it in the MM and the DMG, but some of it derives from internal-WotC rulings. The upcoming monsters-as-classes book (called Tooth & Claw and other things as they keep changing the name) will have explicit details on how this process works.

Me: I've looked through the FRCS and found nothing on the hit dice, just the ECL. The only thing close is in the DMG, but that was before the current ECL rules came about.

Sean: That's because the ECL races presented as races in the FRCS (chapter 1) don't have base hit dice, so we don't have to cover that sort of thing.

So... there you have it.


Chris

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

OK then.

Though page 289 DOES cover monsters with HD and it states that the HD go into ECL, then it refers back to Table 1-2.

So obviously they intend to dump that part the FRCS ECL rules in Tooth and Claw, just as they intend to dump the FRCS epic rules in the Epic book.

Obviously access to WoTC "internal rulings" can change things.

*shrug*