ECL for Monster races who advance "By Character Class"?

[Xarlen]

Got it, Lela?

I can offer further explination, unless ya understand.

Edit: I think Hong did a good job there, tho.

 

[Lela]

Look at the DMG page 22. There's a section there called 'Monsters as Races'. This applies to PCs only.

There is a chart that gives examples of ECLs.

Aw, I forgot about this page. This should help.


Here's what I've got going on. If I were to have a NPC party attack the PCs then I would need to know their ECLs to make it balanced, or slightly weaker or whatever. (The 4NPCs vs 4PCs argument)

[Edit: Going back to read the two posts before this one.]

 

[Gromm]

This is part of what makes things so confusing. CR and ECL are !=. And yet, we are still supposed to add the CR of a monster to the # of class levels it has, just like we add the ECL to the number of class levels.

Xarlen explained it well. Being able to say Teleport at Will is insanely powerful (as are a ton of monster abilities), and as such would shoot your ECL through the roof. For a monster who lasts about 1 encounter its not a big deal (the same can be said of Regeneration-especially for demons/devils and the like).

So, if we ran into a Centar PC, how would I assign experience? How would you determin when they level up?

They gain XP like a character of thier effective level. I don't recall centaurs's ECL, but lets say its 9 (which is pretty close I think). So if the character is a Ftr2 Centaur he gains XP and levels like a 11th level character. He gets one feat (for level 1), no stat points, and his two bonus fighter feats, plus whatever centaurs start with. Next level (same XP as a 12th level character), he gets another feat. Next level (13th) he gets a stat point. Etc.Etc.Etc.

Where did you get that?

Currently the FCRS errata and a Dragon magazine are the offical source, until Claw and Tooth (or whatever its called) comes out.

 

[Lela]

Got it, Lela?

I can offer further explination, unless ya understand.

I think I've got it. But I certinally won't say no if you feal like making sure I've got it.

Just out of curriosity, I've heard that ECLs had something to do with the HD of the monster. Was that just the "Each monster has an ECL modifier, which is at least equal to its HD" thing that Hong mentioned?

Originally posted by Gromm
They gain XP like a character of thier effective level. I don't recall centaurs's ECL, but lets say its 9 (which is pretty close I think). So if the character is a Ftr2 Centaur he gains XP and levels like a 11th level character. He gets one feat (for level 1), no stat points, and his two bonus fighter feats, plus whatever centaurs start with. Next level (same XP as a 12th level character), he gets another feat. Next level (13th) he gets a stat point. Etc.Etc.Etc.

Okay, that makes sense. I've got one question though. What the heck kind of Centars do you play?



Now, as I said above, I think I'm getting it. The reason I'm checking on this should become apparent soon.

 

[Xarlen]

My suggestion to you: run some tests with a Centaur as a PC. Give them a flat number like... ECL +5. That would mean that if they were a 4th level pc, they'd be even with a 9th level character. Then, pit them against some monsters, rolling things as per a group. If the Centaur does better, try and raise the ECL for the centaur.

 

[Lela]

My suggestion to you: run some tests with a Centaur as a PC. Give them a flat number like... ECL +5. That would mean that if they were a 4th level pc, they'd be even with a 9th level character. Then, pit them against some monsters, rolling things as per a group. If the Centaur does better, try and raise the ECL for the centaur.

LOL. This wasn't at all the reason I asked about this but it does fit, so I'll pop it out. On of my players just got reincarnated as a Centar. Needless to say, this is going to suck. It'll help that I believe in using the Greek version of the centar, so he'll have NUMOROUS problems in social situations but, in an actual battle, it's going to make things a lot harder for me. Especally because they are only 4th level.

After looking through all of this, I'm going to drop his Cha score, even though the Reincarnate spell itself says not to. EDIT: In fact, maybe I'll drop all of his mental stats a little. He's a Cleric seeking Paladinship. It should suck for him and even him out a little.

 

[dcollins]

Here's what I've got going on. If I were to have a NPC party attack the PCs then I would need to know their ECLs to make it balanced, or slightly weaker or whatever. (The 4NPCs vs 4PCs argument)

No, that's not right.

CR's measure how hard it is for PCs to fight the creature.
ECL's measure how hard it is for PCs to be the creature.

If the issue at hand is truly balancing creatures to "attack the PCs", then the appropriate measuring stick is CR's. You should not have to deal with ECL's whatsoever.

 

[Lela]

No, that's not right.

CR's measure how hard it is for PCs to fight the creature.
ECL's measure how hard it is for PCs to be the creature.

If the issue at hand is truly balancing creatures to "attack the PCs", then the appropriate measuring stick is CR's. You should not have to deal with ECL's whatsoever.

Okay, then tell me how to calculate CR for monsters with character levels.

 

[Gromm]

Okay, then tell me how to calculate CR for monsters with character levels.

Extensive playtesting.

Theres no formula, since monsters vary so wildly that its hard to use a default standard.

As far as the whole reincarnation thing, someone else had a post about how the ECL doesn't change, but they don't get all the abilities (or something). Vaguely remember it from another thread.

 

[Xarlen]

Okay, then tell me how to calculate CR for monsters with character levels.

CR + Class level.

A Drow Wiz3 is a CR 4.