ECL of monsters: Playtest of a centaur

[Malin Genie]

To access Improven Overrun, a fighter needs a whole slew of Feats including Improved Trip and Int 13+.

But a centaur can just put a 1st level fighter with the Trample Feat on his back - and voila - Instant Improved Overrun

 

[CRGreathouse]

To access Improven Overrun, a fighter needs a whole slew of Feats including Improved Trip and Int 13+.

But a centaur can just put a 1st level fighter with the Trample Feat on his back - and voila - Instant Improved Overrun

So having that Ftr1 on your back is like three bonus feats? Does that put the centaur on top of the feats, too?

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

The main problem I have with the ECL system is that it levels the playing field during low levels of play, but causes a huge disparity at higher levels.

You got it backward. The ECL race are at their weakest when they're level 1. As they gain level the differences between ECL and non ECL race tend to become smoother.

One of the main weakness of ECL race is usually lower HP than an ECL 0 race of the same class. As they gain levels this gap will become relatively smaller. A level 2 paladin has about 60% more HP than a level 1 asimar paladin. 10 level later the difference is probably around 5%.

In the case of an Ogre, Centaur, Troll and other races with huge CON bonus, the gap also diminish absolutely since they gain more HP every level than a normal race.

Another good examples are drow. I had a rogue Drow player in my campaign at low level. She got disinterested because her PC was not very useful. She had to be extremely careful due to her very low HP and didn't even have lots of skill point compared to a 4th level rogue.

Frankly I don't recommend playing a drow at very low levels.

But by the time you are level 10-12 the benefits start to pay off. Higher INT has compensated for the 2 lost levels skillwise, SR is starting to pay off as everyone and his dog attack you with magical effects, you have acquired most of the feats that allow you to play to your strenght and the relative gap in HP is less significant.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Playing a Centaur Fighter 18 would SEEM to me to be very similiar in ability to a Fighter 20. Certainly much closer than a Centaur Fighter 12 would be.

That's just plain silly.

We can't seriously argue ECL together if you can't realize this.

Design the stats for these two PC using the same character points allotment and you'll see for yourself.

 

[Wolfspider]

To access Improven Overrun, a fighter needs a whole slew of Feats including Improved Trip and Int 13+.

But a centaur can just put a 1st level fighter with the Trample Feat on his back - and voila - Instant Improved Overrun

I don't buy this argument. Even if he has a rider on his back, a centaur is still absolutely in control of his actions, very much different from the experience of a character riding a horse. Such a rider has close to absolute control over its mount's actions due to the training it has received over years. This kind of relationship does not exist between an intelligent centaur that happens to decide to let the character tag along on its back.

Next you'll be saying that a halfling outriding should be able to use his powers while riding on the shoulders of his human companion....

 

[chilibean]

That's just plain silly.

We can't seriously argue ECL together if you can't realize this.

Design the stats for these two PC using the same character points allotment and you'll see for yourself.

Perhaps you're right.

To me it's beyond arguing that a centaur fighter 12 would be completely outclassed by a human fighter 20.

A centaur fighter 18 vs a human fighter 20 however would depend greatly on the availability of magic items that would help a centaur. The cost of a halfway decent suit of magic armor would probably eat up the majority of it's allotment of money, leaving it seriously deficient in other areas. Or it could forgo the expensive exotic armor and get hacked to pieces because if its low AC.

Now since I haven't actually bothered to try and price such a suit of armor, it's entirely possible that I'm off base here and the centaur wouldn't be at a disadvantage afterall. I can just imagine playing one and NEVER finding a suit of armor that is worth a damn and spending all my money on a desperate attempt to keep my AC in line with what a fighter at my level would normally have. What I know for certain is that I've never found a suit of +2 full plate for centaurs ... ever! Perhaps you run into them all the time?

 

[bret]

I hope you mean "comparable to an ECL 0 race fighter/cleric - otherwise you've missed the point of what I said.

Only races with natural spellcasting powers can expect to keep up with non-ECLed spellcasters, at least in the spellcasting arena. An aranea, for example, should not be too far behind the human sorcerers (assuming you let its sorcerer levels stack with its natural spellcasting - and I can see no reason why not.)

The ECL is not only always correct for the "fighting types" - it is correct for the optimum type. The fact that that is usually a fighting type is a function of the monsters chosen, not of the ECL system itself.

J

I meant Straight Cleric, maybe picking up the Battle Cleric PrC from Defenders if that helps.

In a short battle, a fully stocked Cleric preparing spells to enhance combat will often outshine a straight fighter. Start mixing the levels and you have problems because you no longer have the higher level spells like Divine Power.

Once the cleric has started using up his or her best spells, then the fighter has a chance.

The ECL system doesn't work if there is only one class that you can take for a particular race.


Back to your original statement, actually a Dwarven Mage can be extremely effective because of their bonus to resist opponent spells and Con bonus. The Dwarven Sorcerer or Bard isn't as good, but that is only two classes out of eleven.

I would like to see a Centaur Druid, Cleric, Rogue, something other than one of the Fighter types before I decide if the ECL is correct.

 

[CRGreathouse]

To me it's beyond arguing that a centaur fighter 12 would be completely outclassed by a human fighter 20.

Let's see what we can do. Make two characters with the stadnard stat array. The human: Str 15+3 level, Dex 13, Con 14+2 level, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8. The centaur: Str 15+8 racial+1 level, Dex 10+4 racial, Con 14+4 level+4 racial, Int 13-2 racial, Wis 10+2 racial, Cha 8.

The total stats (before magic items) are as follows.
Human: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Centaur: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 8

The human has a a +6 belt of giant strength (36,000 gp), a +6 amulet of health (36,000 gp), and an incandescent blue ioun stone (8,000 gp).
The centaur has a a +6 belt of giant strength (36,000 gp), a deep red ioun stone (8,000 gp), a +6 amulet of health (36,000 gp), and a scarlet and blue ioun stone (8,000 gp).

The total stats (after magic items) are as follows.
Human: Str 24, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Centaur: Str 32, Dex 16, Con 28, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8

The human has 20d10+120 hit points, for an average of 230.
The centaur has 4d8+12d10+144 hit points, for an average of 228.

The centaur wears +4 mithral full plate barding of heavy fortification (123,600 gp) and a (modified) +4 ring of proetction (32,000 gp).
The human wears +5 full plate of heavy fortification (101,650 gp) and a +5 ring of protection (50,000 gp).

Centaur AC: 31 (+12 full plate, +3 Dex, +2 natural, +4 ring of protection)
Human AC: 29 (+13 full plate, +1 Dex, +5 ring of protection)

The human wields a +5 flaming speed greatsword, attacking at +33/+33/+28/+23/+18 for 2d6+17 damage.
The centaur wields a +5 flaming speed Huge greatsword, attacking at +32/+32/+27/+22/+17 for 2d8+23 damage.


The centaur has about the same number of hit points and about the same attack bonuses, dealing 40% more damage (35% if flaming damage works). The human has more bonus feats, though both have the "core" feats - Focus, Specialization, Improved Crit, Power attack, Cleave, etc.

The Armor Classes are similar (though the centaur has a slight edge).

The human decidedly has the edge in skills, though the centaur has better Spot and Listen scores. The human also has a higher base attack bonus (+20 vs. +16).

The centaur has decidedly better stats than the human.

The gold spent in this excercise was neasrly identical for both the centaur and human; they botrh spent about 60% of their baseline.

 

[omedon]

I admit I don't know very much about ECL's. How do they work?

Do ECL characters get the same magical item alotment as 0-ECL's? For example, a Lizardfolk who is ECL 4 + character level 5: for a total equivalent level of 9. Woul they get the same amount as treasure as his level 9 human friend who is ECL 0 + 9 character levels for a total equivalent of 9.

Do the treasure guides in the DMG measure appropriate character wealth by the Character level or the Equivalent Character level?

Would there be a disparity between thes to races in terms of wealth when they reached ECL 9 (5 Character levels for the Lizardfolk and 9 for the Human)? Do they need to both be at Character level 9 in order to eliminate the disparity? ie. Total level 13 for the centaur and 9 for the human.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Do ECL characters get the same magical item alotment as 0-ECL's? For example, a Lizardfolk who is ECL 4 + character level 5: for a total equivalent level of 9. Woul they get the same amount as treasure as his level 9 human friend who is ECL 0 + 9 character levels for a total equivalent of 9.

The FRCS rules (that is, the correct ones) base XP and baseline wealth on ECL, so a lizardfolk Ftr5 has as much money as a human Ftr9.