Wormwood
Adventurer
doktorstick said:
As written, I think the Genasi blow.
You could always take a look at the Sean Reynolds "Elemarns" , which are (IMO) proper replacements for the FRCS Genasi.
Which blow.
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+ECL Races: Generally Worth It?
- Thread starter doktorstick
- Start date
As written, I think the Genasi blow.
You could always take a look at the Sean Reynolds "Elemarns" , which are (IMO) proper replacements for the FRCS Genasi.
Which blow.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Although I've never played an ECL character, I've been in campaigns with one. Let me second the apparent consensus here.
1. ECL characters aren't good for spellcasters.
2. ECL characters are weak at low levels. (The previous post indicated that they may catch up somewhere around level 8 or 9 and possibly surpass their ECL +0 brethren later. . . but you have to live long enough to get there first).
My experience is this. One of our groups oddball power gamers (I call him this because he has a habit of picking the race/stat combinations that give his characters insane strengths, etc. but seems to fail to make proper use of these or take into account their weaknesses resulting in characters that should be effectively seven levels higher than the rest of the party proving only one or two levels more effective than the rest of the party in practice). We were playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and our DM let us create 4th level characters. He picked a 1st level half-dragon half orc barbarian with a 28 strength. Everyone else chose an ECL 0 race (elf cleric, human fighter, elf fighter, human sorceress, human ranger/druid). He has proven to be able to dish out damage very effectively but is unable to take it. He was the first character to die and would have died again had he not cowered in the corner during the party's fight with the greater water elemental (which ended up killing the human fighter and nearly killing the elf fighter and the ranger/druid). Had he not made his reflex save in the first major encounter, he would have died there as well (after making his save, IIRC, he was at -7hp). He certainly has the ability to dish out damage quickly (1d12+13 with a greataxe or 1d12+16 while raging) but he would dish out even more damage on a full attack as a 6th level barbarian with a 20 strength (what he'd be without the template) (2 attacks for 1d12+7 (+10 while raging) each) and his saving throws wouldn't be nearly as much of a liability. (Personally, I doubt the character will live to see the level it will reach parity with a non ECL character).
1. ECL characters aren't good for spellcasters.
2. ECL characters are weak at low levels. (The previous post indicated that they may catch up somewhere around level 8 or 9 and possibly surpass their ECL +0 brethren later. . . but you have to live long enough to get there first).
My experience is this. One of our groups oddball power gamers (I call him this because he has a habit of picking the race/stat combinations that give his characters insane strengths, etc. but seems to fail to make proper use of these or take into account their weaknesses resulting in characters that should be effectively seven levels higher than the rest of the party proving only one or two levels more effective than the rest of the party in practice). We were playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and our DM let us create 4th level characters. He picked a 1st level half-dragon half orc barbarian with a 28 strength. Everyone else chose an ECL 0 race (elf cleric, human fighter, elf fighter, human sorceress, human ranger/druid). He has proven to be able to dish out damage very effectively but is unable to take it. He was the first character to die and would have died again had he not cowered in the corner during the party's fight with the greater water elemental (which ended up killing the human fighter and nearly killing the elf fighter and the ranger/druid). Had he not made his reflex save in the first major encounter, he would have died there as well (after making his save, IIRC, he was at -7hp). He certainly has the ability to dish out damage quickly (1d12+13 with a greataxe or 1d12+16 while raging) but he would dish out even more damage on a full attack as a 6th level barbarian with a 20 strength (what he'd be without the template) (2 attacks for 1d12+7 (+10 while raging) each) and his saving throws wouldn't be nearly as much of a liability. (Personally, I doubt the character will live to see the level it will reach parity with a non ECL character).
In one campain I am currently playing a 6th-level drow bard.
I chose the drow race for role-playing reasons and not for the 120' darkvison or the spell resistance. Of course, these abilities are worth a lot. However, I don't think that they are worth a +2 ECL if think in terms of power-play.
As many of you have said, at lower levels the loss of HP's is a big problem of an character of a race with an ECL modifier. On the other hand, at higher levels there are spells and magical items which can give characters of other races the abilities of an "ECL race". For example there are a lot of items which give you spell resistance, there is a robe which gives you 120' darkvision, etc. So, I just want to say that the other characters will also get the advantages of an "ECL race", however without a penalty.
Perhaps the concept of a dynamic ECL modifier is worth thinking about it.
Perhaps the next time I will play a character like my bard I may choose half-drow. No ECL (but darkvision if only 60') and --- for role-playing reasons --- surface races may not make any difference between a half-drow and a "full-drow".
I chose the drow race for role-playing reasons and not for the 120' darkvison or the spell resistance. Of course, these abilities are worth a lot. However, I don't think that they are worth a +2 ECL if think in terms of power-play.
As many of you have said, at lower levels the loss of HP's is a big problem of an character of a race with an ECL modifier. On the other hand, at higher levels there are spells and magical items which can give characters of other races the abilities of an "ECL race". For example there are a lot of items which give you spell resistance, there is a robe which gives you 120' darkvision, etc. So, I just want to say that the other characters will also get the advantages of an "ECL race", however without a penalty.
Perhaps the concept of a dynamic ECL modifier is worth thinking about it.
Perhaps the next time I will play a character like my bard I may choose half-drow. No ECL (but darkvision if only 60') and --- for role-playing reasons --- surface races may not make any difference between a half-drow and a "full-drow".
Kalanyr
Explorer
I've played a Drow and I'll agree that unless you spend an obscene amount of time min-maxing do it soley for the flavour. The power just ain't there. (Especially for Drow in the FRCS) (Average Spell resistance 9 + ECL) (Average Spell Penetration D20 + CR + 4 to 10 ) Can you tell how well this is gonna work out ?
Creamsteak
Explorer
As Kal Vaguely knows,
In my games I use point buy, and I give different points based on ECL. The aim is to keep everyone around the same value, but allow them to play anything they want.
You want to be a Human (ECL -) You get 42 Points
You want to be a Duergar (ECL +1) You get 34 Points
You want to be an Ogre (ECL +2) You get 26 Points
You want to be a Doppleganger (ECL +3) You get 18 Points
You want to be a Minotaur (ECL +4) You get 10 Points
You want to be a Half-Dragon Ogre (ECL +5) You get 2 Points.
It tends to keep the players from choosing things like the Half-Dragon Ogre, but they still get the freedom to choose most other races, and I don't penalize them any more after that, just because I'm a softy.
In my games I use point buy, and I give different points based on ECL. The aim is to keep everyone around the same value, but allow them to play anything they want.
You want to be a Human (ECL -) You get 42 Points
You want to be a Duergar (ECL +1) You get 34 Points
You want to be an Ogre (ECL +2) You get 26 Points
You want to be a Doppleganger (ECL +3) You get 18 Points
You want to be a Minotaur (ECL +4) You get 10 Points
You want to be a Half-Dragon Ogre (ECL +5) You get 2 Points.
It tends to keep the players from choosing things like the Half-Dragon Ogre, but they still get the freedom to choose most other races, and I don't penalize them any more after that, just because I'm a softy.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Aasimar paladin might make sense if you point-buy, so you can guarantee a great Charisma - but unless you have good luck with die rolling (or a kind DM, or one of the more lenient generation methods) you might not end up with a great Charisma... The average Aasimar only has Cha 12 after all 
I would suggest that the main reason for choosing a +ECL race should be flavour and interesting backstory, mechanically the ECL means that you are unlikely to be better off than any other race (which is as it should be).
Cheers
I would suggest that the main reason for choosing a +ECL race should be flavour and interesting backstory, mechanically the ECL means that you are unlikely to be better off than any other race (which is as it should be).
Cheers
Brown Jenkin
First Post
Kalanyr said:
I fully agree. I am playing a Aasimar Mystic Wanderer and I can count the number of times on one hand that the bonus abilities have come in handy. If you choose to go with a +ECL race do it because that is the type of character you want to play.
Crothian said:
Agreed.
I am currently playing a half-dragon (red*) monk named Katan, with a few sorcerer levels tossed in. I'd be even better off without those sorcerer levels, but it fits the concept what with dragon-blood. You know.
(*Yeah, I know... Red. It was mostly for story purposes based on campaign specific stuff. But to help balance the superiority of choosing Red, I offered to take Fire Sub-type. So I now take double damage from cold. And, I'll tell you, that has hurt on several occasions.
)I don't outshine anyone else. But I don't suck either. And that's using the +3 ECL that used to be suggested (before the "guestimate" +5 WotC offered up in a recent Dragon Mag.).
But I sometimes wish I had the extra monk levels for the higher end abilities that they get. Being 3 levels down can be annoying. Especially in situations like last session. I almost died from a prismatic spray (DM rolled poison). I failed the save and would have been dead except that I have Luck (once per day) and managed to roll well on the reroll. I wouldn't have had to worry at all if I were a human monk (Diamond Body = immune to poisons).
Overall, the RP aspects are fun though. I wouldn't do it again for "power" reasons. But then, I chose it this time for the fun of it anyway. Taking lava baths and drinking alchemical fire are a few of the fun things Katan likes to do.
