ECL vs. CR = Experience? A thought on balance

[Simulacrum]

This came out by collective brainstorming of my group.
I dont put it into the House Rule section because I strongly believe that this should be part of the NEW REVISED gamechanics of D&D.
Lets have a look at the word Challenge Rating. It gives us all this pain in the ass feeling doesnt it? It implies that you get challenged by something and that there is some sort of rating that makes it comparable to other factors right?
Ok why is the CR not a flexible number then??
We talked alot about how the system should treat such a number that is obviously meant for 28 pointbuy / avarage PC characters!
Why do characters with stats equal to 34 pointbuy and above get the same number of Experience than those who are TRULY challenged by the system??
We agreed on that and decided to throw out a suggestion on this forum, and hopefully WoC read it and think about it.
CR's of encounters chould drop for characters in this way:

CR's should be flexible. it should be
-0 for character between 24-28 pointbuy
(or equivalent stat no matter how it was created!)
-1 for character between 29-32 pointbuy
-2 for character between 33-37 pointbuy

-->or some similar mechanic. It cant be denied that this is the only way to go. Put some logic behind the gamemechanics!
Most will instantly agree that in a game that bases all it's blancing factors on six statistics should have such a system!
What do the other game veterans and rule mongers out there think?

 

[officeronin]

Nice idea, but your levels are draconian. If you shared your system with your group, and if they were all munchkins, everyone would grab the lower point buy, because the higher buys are incredibly expensive. A +1 modifier in a high stat is a +1 CR mod? No way.

What about wealth? Certainly a wealth party will have an easier time than the party of poverty... Even more, if the spellcasters made items, then the wealth is pretty high, and it's all useful stuff. How do you account for that? This is what gets in the way of fair CRs more than anything else.

OfficeRonin

 

[Simulacrum]

Nice idea, but your levels are draconian. If you shared your system with your group, and if they were all munchkins, everyone would grab the lower point buy, because the higher buys are incredibly expensive. A +1 modifier in a high stat is a +1 CR mod? No way.

What about wealth? Certainly a wealth party will have an easier time than the party of poverty... Even more, if the spellcasters made items, then the wealth is pretty high, and it's all useful stuff. How do you account for that? This is what gets in the way of fair CRs more than anything else.

OfficeRonin

Yeah they are probably draconian but you have to start somewhere..dont forget it's not 1 character that has higher stats its potentialy 4 or more characters and those things add up pretty quickly and get dangerously powerful and unbalancing (belive me I know!)
At least I'd suggest this:
-0 for character between 24-32 pointbuy
-1 for character between 33-39 pointbuy

Wealth is allready covered by the maximum wealth per level per chracter, and is pretty much ok by me....
If some character finds more money or items worth more than he is allowed I would treat him as a higher ECL or just simply decrease the CR's by one or two.

 

[dcollins]

Put this stuff in House Rules, please. The fact that you "wish it were in the rules" does not sidestep the fact that it's not the actual rules.

 

[Simulacrum]

Put this stuff in House Rules, please. The fact that you "wish it were in the rules" does not sidestep the fact that it's not the actual rules.

Ok where is the difference in questioning a game mechanic and simply writing a rant, or doing the same and add a creative idea to it?? It's not meant as a house rule, it's meant as a core rule discussion. But how can you discuss without posting your opinion and possible solutions? I dont want no house rule, house rules tend to suck, I want a intelligent discussion about the core rule mechanics, and the lack thereoff.
Posting this under house rules is a bad idea imho, because its not about some fancy change in a spell or some other minor thing, it brings light into a very dark corner of the core rules and a look at the gears of the game and it's balancing!

 

[Murrdox]

I agree that the CR system isn't perfect... but I don't think your system is going to make any big difference.

I think the equipment characters obtain and their wealth can be a much more imbalancing factor to CRs than a character's base attribute scores.

I mean, if you want to talk about CR balancing, all you have to do is look at the core classes for crying out loud. By the book, NPCs are a CR equal to their level.

So that means a 5th level Fighter is a CR 5, and a 5th level Bard is a CR 5?

In what universe is a Bard as challenging as a Fighter? I'm not trying to turn this into a class balancing thread - the classes are balanced for things OTHER than combat, like the Bard for example.

CRs are not an exact science - and personally I think a fluid system based off attribute points would be utterly pointless. I'll use an 18 point buy system, and then find a Horn of Blasting, and completely imbalance the campaign. That doesn't have anything to do with my attributes.

A fluid CR system is a good idea, but I think it should just be DM's decision when to change the CR for an encounter based on the conditions.

Perhaps WotC should FIRST clean up the whole CR and ECL factors so that they actually make a little SENSE and then give us some CR modification guidelines. THAT would be helpful.

 

[Simulacrum]

Oh god dont blame me for not bringing the PERFECT mechanic for this....jeebus I just wanted to throw a stone into the water and make the talk worthwhile. Wealth is balanced by character wealth by level (as mentioned above allready...people who know how to read have the advantage) and this can be adjusted by the DM far more easily than attribute scores by people who want to play munchkinised characters.
(also you can take away someones items and money without a sweat but taking away someones character is not appreciated by players, not to mention that it will make people angry.
The game should be about what you can not what you cant.
People who want to play stronger chars are less challenged thus they get LESS of the experience!)
NPC classes are made with the 20 pointbuy method and should get +1 CR for defeating monsters.
Of course PC classes shouldnt be LEVEL = CR that is ridiculous.
Id say something like this.

Lesser PC classes like Bard +0 CR
Combat oriented class +1 CR
Mage/Cleric +2 CR
Exeptional equipment and or wealth +1 or +2 depends
Munchkinzed +1 (on top of that)

These things should be calculated in and there should be Tables and rules for it.
This is the point where you are absolutely right and I couldnt agree more...the CR system needs to make sense finally!

 

[Murrdox]

Hmmm... by granting monsters that a player with a low point-buy system kills a +1 CR (thus netting them more experience) aren't you in fact talking about giving the character in question a -1 ECL for the purpose of calculating XP?

What I mean is that you're saying if a level 5 character with a low point buy attribute score defeats a CR 5 creature... he should get experience as if the creature were CR 6.

Isn't that the same thing as granting a -1 ECL to the character? Treat him as level 4 for experience rewards, and he'll get more XP from that CR 5.

Such a modification like this could tip ECL races all out of wack. What if I elect to play a Teifling with low attributes? I basically have just completely circumvented my ECL penalty.

 

[Crothian]

I'd close this anbd maybe start with an unbiased poll. Then I'd actually do some playtesting to see exactly how much stronger a 32 point buy character is over a 28 pount buy. The difference is not that impressive.

Why not just count up the resources actually used by the party and base XP off of that? So, the party uses 20% of their resources, they have defeated a CR of their level. This is what the CR mechanic is based off of, so why not just go back to the basics and keep them?

 

[Simulacrum]

Hmmm... by granting monsters that a player with a low point-buy system kills a +1 CR (thus netting them more experience) aren't you in fact talking about giving the character in question a -1 ECL for the purpose of calculating XP?

What I mean is that you're saying if a level 5 character with a low point buy attribute score defeats a CR 5 creature... he should get experience as if the creature were CR 6.

Isn't that the same thing as granting a -1 ECL to the character? Treat him as level 4 for experience rewards, and he'll get more XP from that CR 5.

Such a modification like this could tip ECL races all out of wack. What if I elect to play a Teifling with low attributes? I basically have just completely circumvented my ECL penalty.

First of all it was just an idea, playing an Tiefling with 23 pointbuy gives you alot of penalty for the little bonus of no ECL...think about it.