ECL vs. CR = Experience? A thought on balance

[Simulacrum]

I'd close this anbd maybe start with an unbiased poll. Then I'd actually do some playtesting to see exactly how much stronger a 32 point buy character is over a 28 pount buy. The difference is not that impressive.

Why not just count up the resources actually used by the party and base XP off of that? So, the party uses 20% of their resources, they have defeated a CR of their level. This is what the CR mechanic is based off of, so why not just go back to the basics and keep them?

The poll isnt the thing here, discussion is..the poll was just to have a look at if there is an ear for this matter or it isnt...(but out iof the many rants since 3e I guess there is, so maybe this was redundant)

I playtested it ad nauseum. It's not 1 character we are talking about its normaly a party of 4 or more. Everyone who has played with different groups with different point buy will notice what a BIG difference it makes if you give out more and more STATS.
+2 adds up to +8 in the whole party and the synergy effects is often bigger than the sum of the numbers.
how can you calculate something like 20% to make this a valid number?? CR should compare power level of challenges not some completely theoretical number that just sounds rediculous.
Ok, even if we said lets keep it the old way, will that fix it?
So much for being unbiased, as we all know deep inside that the CR system isnt working this way and needs some LOGIC put behind it. You have to make up some hard statistics and factors that you can connect your system on...the number 20% isnt a hard number and cannot be explained or grasped logicaly as it is completly out of the system...what about 34 or 16% ??

 

[Crothian]

how can you calculate something like 20% to make this a valid number?? CR should compare power level of challenges not some completely theoretical number that just sounds rediculous.
Ok, even if we said lets keep it the old way, will that fix it?
So much for being unbiased, as we all know deep inside that the CR system isnt working this way and needs some LOGIC put behind it. You have to make up some hard statistics and factors that you can connect your system on...the number 20% isnt a hard number and cannot be explained or grasped logicaly as it is completly out of the system...what about 34 or 16% ??

A CR encounter of equal to the party level should take up 20% of the party resources as defined in the DMG. Party resources are very easy to calculate, how many spells were used, how much HPs are left, ect. So, just put a percentage on each CR above and below the levels of the PCs and you can figure out exactly what the XP should be based off of how the battle actually happens not guessing based off what you think the party level power is.

 

[melkoriii]

Your options for your poll are just like options on a ballet in congress.

Ether you vote saying you love the idea or you vote saying you are a munchkin or could give a rats ass.

The poll is weighted.


My Vote is, Your setup will fall apart just as fast as the one in the core books. You will run into almost the same problems as time goes on.

What about when you make the monster have more HP? What about if right at the beginning one PC drops because of something stupid?

What about if your party is made up of three fighters and one Bard?

 

[Deset Gled]

Oh god dont blame me for not bringing the PERFECT mechanic for this

I think that line is probably the same one WOTC are saying.

So much for being unbiased, as we all know deep inside that the CR system isnt working this way and needs some LOGIC put behind it.

It is true that many (though I would hesitate to say all) times, CRs do not accurately reflect all the power of an encounter. But...

CRs are created based on a specific standard (party size, player wealth, level, abilities, etc). If you aren't playing with the standards that they were judged with, then you will almost always find that the numbers don't match up. But, (IMHO) there is absolutely no way that a character's power can ever be summed up in a numerical or simple way. Awarding XP and determining the CR of a particular encounter will always be something that the DM will have to consider.

 

[Fenes 2]

I voted "I do not care", because I don't use CRs for anything more than a possible starting point when choosing a monster as an opponent for my party. I do not use CRs to calculate exp, nor do I use exp at all (If I did use exp, all would be story award exp, meaning completing an adventure (possibly successfully) would net exp, perhaps according to the goals reached (or the fun everyone had).

I tailor opponents and challenges to my PCs anyway, so I do not need a more detailed CR system.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

CRs and awarded XP is never set in stone. It is ultimately set by the DM. CR and XP awards is a sturdy *guidline* nothing more. There's a whole section in the DMG on "adhoc" XP for goodness sakes (right after XP awards I might add).

Though, on a side note, I wouldn't jump down simulacrum's throat for this post.

Simulacrum, I wouldn't get in a huff all about CR and all that. It isn't meant to be rigid and inflexible, look closer into the design and you'll see its not. Even the CR for monsters is meant as helpful guideline (some being adjusted I might add in 3.5).

 

[Simulacrum]

Your options for your poll are just like options on a ballet in congress.
Ether you vote saying you love the idea or you vote saying you are a munchkin or could give a rats ass.
The poll is weighted.
My Vote is, Your setup will fall apart just as fast as the one in the core books. You will run into almost the same problems as time goes on.
What about when you make the monster have more HP? What about if right at the beginning one PC drops because of something stupid?
What about if your party is made up of three fighters and one Bard?

Of course it is a weighted poll, if you ask someone: "Do you think its a good idea make a system better"? +YES or +NO
This is weighted too, but none the less the poll has some humor in there, sorry for not being obvious enough.
Fall apart? No I believe that in a straight system like D&D it is possible to work out a pretty good balanced mechanic for that. At least a WAAAY better one as the 20% thing.
Sorry if you dont believe in it, but thats your bad, I say it would do the system good to put more logic behind it, and work on its consistensy...

and what if someone dropped? Thats could be the cool part of the REVISED system, it would let you calculate these things too!
Cmon use your imagination bro, if you would have spend the time you wrote your nay sayer post for some creative thinking you'd probably see that in fact this is an essential part of the game and needs to be worked on. Just check thousand and thousand gamers that whine and rant about the bad CR system every day on the net. There was a reason for the revision being done right?

 

[Simulacrum]

A CR encounter of equal to the party level should take up 20% of the party resources as defined in the DMG. Party resources are very easy to calculate, how many spells were used, how much HPs are left, ect. So, just put a percentage on each CR above and below the levels of the PCs and you can figure out exactly what the XP should be based off of how the battle actually happens not guessing based off what you think the party level power is.

au contraire, It's far more easy to estimate the party power and make it compareable to encounter strength than that.
What if your party uses up say 25% or 48% of the resources, how much exp does it grant? How do you calculate 36% ??
Please give me an example on a complex party with lots of items and different special abilities etc... I want to see how this is calculated and where the logic of this systems ultimately fails needs no rocket science really. HP, spells, stats (drain), items, (ex), (sp) etc.. abilities, money even exp themselves are all resourses right? What if someone died? please calculate it.
The system is crap, it doesnt work even as a vague guideline imho. The proof is that I see it everytime I start gaming and get to the embarrassing point of distributing EXP and me and my players get a big laugh everytime we try to figure such things out.
Come on you all know what I mean, dont tell me you dont have that big ??? in your faces everytime you think about it and talk with your players and joke about the system....geeeez

 

[Fenes 2]

As I said, I don't use the CR system to deal out exp. Why should I? Eyeballing the adventure, especially after it is finished, and then giving out EXP based on the goals achieved is much easier.

Easier than this would be to give out exp in a manner that the PCs advance at a rate determined by the DM.

Of course, just leveling the party from time to time is even easier.

 

[Simulacrum]

As I said, I don't use the CR system to deal out exp. Why should I? Eyeballing the adventure, especially after it is finished, and then giving out EXP based on the goals achieved is much easier.

Easier than this would be to give out exp in a manner that the PCs advance at a rate determined by the DM.

Of course, just leveling the party from time to time is even easier.

Yes, no doubt on that, this way you cant go wrong. But the CR system is useless then and serves absolutely no purpose than filling a whole chapter in the DMG that WotC charge money for the second time......if this is what WotC feel is ok, then it is a sad truth. And they should strike out the "revision" from the books name.