Ecology of the Dragonborn up

[Jürgen Hubert]

I really don't see the point in this artificial divide between politically correct reptilians, and "kill on sight" reptilians.

Personally, I'd say the dividing line between "PC races" and "NPC races" is:

"Can we sell stuff to them/buy stuff from them without getting killed/eaten?"

If the answer is yes, they count as "civilized" and likely won't be attacked on sight in most except truly xenophobic settlements. If no, eventually one side will attempt to kill the other.

The "implied backstory" says that in the last human empire, all the PC races managed to live together, and this created a certain measure of trust that still endures to this day. For a good metaphor, think back to the time of the Roman Empire. The Greeks disliked the Romans, who in turn sneered at the Gauls, but ultimately they were all members of the Roman empire and theoretically received some measure of protection by it. In contrast, all of these were deeply suspicious of the barbaric Germanic tribes to the north, and any trade and other contact with them was rare and only happened at a few places.

So let's say the human empire of the backstory managed to conquer a good chunk of the world - halfling marshlands, elven and eladrin forest kingdoms, dwarven mountain strongholds, and so forth. They convinced dragonborn nomads to join their armies (where they probably joined certain elite units), and tieflings had always dwelled in communities in their midst - widely distrusted, but with abilities that were too useful to ignore. And everyone learned Common and learned to communicate with each other.

On the other hand, there were some races which the Empire never conquered and assimilated before it collapsed. Orcs were too fierce to submit to civilization. Others, like lizardfolkn, simply dwelled in regions too far away. As a result, they never learned Common in large numbers, were hard to trade with, and didn't leave their native regions in numbers large enough to be accepted as "civilized". Ancient manuscripts from the Empire talked about the "civilized races" - the PC races listed in the PHB - but the lizardfolk were never more than curiosities, complete with the kind of stories authors like to make up about foreign countries to send a chill down the spine of their readers and make them glad that they live in a civilized region.

Of course, it's perfectly acceptable that lizardfolk are counted among the "civilized" races in your campaign world. But if you want a justification for the current setup, here it is...

 

[Wormwood]

I do not expect the default community in a PoL setting to be a miniature-sigil.

I thought the average PoL community was a miniature Ankh-Morpork: mostly human but more than willing accomodate 'monsters' as long as they mind their own business and spend some coin.

 

[Fenes]

Personally, I'd say the dividing line between "PC races" and "NPC races" is:

"Can we sell stuff to them/buy stuff from them without getting killed/eaten?"

If the answer is yes, they count as "civilized" and likely won't be attacked on sight in most except truly xenophobic settlements. If no, eventually one side will attempt to kill the other.

The "implied backstory" says that in the last human empire, all the PC races managed to live together, and this created a certain measure of trust that still endures to this day. For a good metaphor, think back to the time of the Roman Empire. The Greeks disliked the Romans, who in turn sneered at the Gauls, but ultimately they were all members of the Roman empire and theoretically received some measure of protection by it. In contrast, all of these were deeply suspicious of the barbaric Germanic tribes to the north, and any trade and other contact with them was rare and only happened at a few places.

So let's say the human empire of the backstory managed to conquer a good chunk of the world - halfling marshlands, elven and eladrin forest kingdoms, dwarven mountain strongholds, and so forth. They convinced dragonborn nomads to join their armies (where they probably joined certain elite units), and tieflings had always dwelled in communities in their midst - widely distrusted, but with abilities that were too useful to ignore. And everyone learned Common and learned to communicate with each other.

On the other hand, there were some races which the Empire never conquered and assimilated before it collapsed. Orcs were too fierce to submit to civilization. Others, like lizardfolkn, simply dwelled in regions too far away. As a result, they never learned Common in large numbers, were hard to trade with, and didn't leave their native regions in numbers large enough to be accepted as "civilized". Ancient manuscripts from the Empire talked about the "civilized races" - the PC races listed in the PHB - but the lizardfolk were never more than curiosities, complete with the kind of stories authors like to make up about foreign countries to send a chill down the spine of their readers and make them glad that they live in a civilized region.

Of course, it's perfectly acceptable that lizardfolk are counted among the "civilized" races in your campaign world. But if you want a justification for the current setup, here it is...

It just feels made up. In our history, minorities who were part of an empire ended up persecuted once the empire changed hands or broke up. Old prejudice never really died out, not even in the enlightened times.

I just don't buy the "and we PC races all live in harmony" line.

 

[Wormwood]

I just don't buy the "and we PC races all live in harmony" line.

On the face of it, neither do I.

But then again I usually roll Horde.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It just feels made up. In our history, minorities who were part of an empire ended up persecuted once the empire changed hands or broke up. Old prejudice never really died out, not even in the enlightened times.

I just don't buy the "and we PC races all live in harmony" line.

Has this always been true in our history? Or has this only be true where the empire was oppressive and exploited its members?

But what's with other D&D settings - why can Elves and Humans live peacefully most of the time? Why isn't an Elf a strange or fearful sight in a Greyhawk Village?
Why do PC races get along with each other? Or do they not in your campaign?

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

It just feels made up. In our history, minorities who were part of an empire ended up persecuted once the empire changed hands or broke up. Old prejudice never really died out, not even in the enlightened times.

I just don't buy the "and we PC races all live in harmony" line.

Of course it didn't die out. But for gaming purpose, it's sufficient that the races don't try to kill each other on sight most of the time.

I mean, Jews managed to live throughout most of Europe for most of the Middle Ages, despite constant prejudices and the occasional pogrom. I don't see why a similar model couldn't be used for D&D - especially since the "civilized" races have all those outsider races to pin their hatreds on. Who cares about the dragonborn next door when you have to worry about the marauding orc horde? Especially since the dragonborn has always helped out with repelling orc invaders?

Mind you, you still don't like him and wouldn't invite him for dinner (let alone allowing him to date your daughter... never mind, let's not go there). But as long as he doesn't bother you, you won't bother him too much (beyond the occasional "premium" you charge him on your wares - but you are sure that that filthy scalehead is doing the same to you, so that's all right)).

 

[Fenes]

Has this always been true in our history? Or has this only be true where the empire was oppressive and exploited its members?

But what's with other D&D settings - why can Elves and Humans live peacefully most of the time? Why isn't an Elf a strange or fearful sight in a Greyhawk Village?
Why do PC races get along with each other? Or do they not in your campaign?

Of course they do not get along peacefully, with some exceptions. The standard relations between elves and humans are always strained, with humans spreading out, and pushing into elven lands. Dwarves have less troubles, because humans don't really like to live underground. Both races also are in decline, so there's less conflict for lack of numbers on the elven/dwarf side. Basically, in my campaign, the races get along with each other as long as they do not mix much, or in some very cosmopolitan towns, and even there there might be a "dwarven quarter".

 

[Fenes]

Of course it didn't die out. But for gaming purpose, it's sufficient that the races don't try to kill each other on sight most of the time.

I mean, Jews managed to live throughout most of Europe for most of the Middle Ages, despite constant prejudices and the occasional pogrom. I don't see why a similar model couldn't be used for D&D - especially since the "civilized" races have all those outsider races to pin their hatreds on. Who cares about the dragonborn next door when you have to worry about the marauding orc horde? Especially since the dragonborn has always helped out with repelling orc invaders?

Mind you, you still don't like him and wouldn't invite him for dinner (let alone allowing him to date your daughter... never mind, let's not go there). But as long as he doesn't bother you, you won't bother him too much (beyond the occasional "premium" you charge him on your wares - but you are sure that that filthy scalehead is doing the same to you, so that's all right)).

I could see that in a strong Empire, where the law and order is kept up, but not in a PoL. Too easy to use each other as scapegoats there. And people are apt to band together in clans and tribes, excluding other humans - why would they tolerate non-humans much? And the same goes for the non-human races. Even by canon, how many humans live in dwarven or elven communities?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Of course they do not get along peacefully, with some exceptions. The standard relations between elves and humans are always strained, with humans spreading out, and pushing into elven lands. Dwarves have less troubles, because humans don't really like to live underground. Both races also are in decline, so there's less conflict for lack of numbers on the elven/dwarf side. Basically, in my campaign, the races get along with each other as long as they do not mix much, or in some very cosmopolitan towns, and even there there might be a "dwarven quarter".

Well, Tieflings and Dragonborn are just another race in decline - Dragonborn mostly travel alone or in pairs, and wander around a lot. Tieflings, after the fall of their Great Empire, don't really look that much better either.

They get along as long as there is nothing to quarrel about. If there is, you can be sure species will become an issue. Of course, as long as their are Lizardfolk, Goblins, Kobolds and Giants threatening civilization, it might be better not to quarrel too much...

 

[Fenes]

Well, Tieflings and Dragonborn are just another race in decline - Dragonborn mostly travel alone or in pairs, and wander around a lot. Tieflings, after the fall of their Great Empire, don't really look that much better either.

They get along as long as there is nothing to quarrel about. If there is, you can be sure species will become an issue. Of course, as long as their are Lizardfolk, Goblins, Kobolds and Giants threatening civilization, it might be better not to quarrel too much...

I use PS tieflings, not the streamlined but boring 4E ones, so that's one less race in decline.

And I don't use dragonborn, of course - there's lizardfolk for those who want to play a lizard.