GMforPowergamers
Legend
ELMINSTER can, and has lied to and gotten away with disregarding AO'.
Yes that made me throw a book at a player when he told me
D&D 5E Ed Greenwood to write 5E's Forgotten Realms
- Thread starter GX.Sigma
- Start date
ELMINSTER can, and has lied to and gotten away with disregarding AO'.
Yes that made me throw a book at a player when he told me
Incenjucar
Legend
Seriously?
Next there'll be a text block about how Elminster refuses to return the Lady of Pain's calls after he decided she was too needy.
The strength of the Forgotten Realms was that there was plenty of variety in the world for what you might want to play and that you had a strong background material to help place the setting. The ruins have descriptions, even minor, of what or who held them which helps both novice and expert DMs.
If I had any say in the matter, I'd like to see a reboot back to 3rd edition with a few slight changes:
1) Manshoon Wars never happened... that plotline really fizzled out fast and the resolution of having the vampiric Manshoon prevail was meh.
2) No Red Wizard enclaves.
3) Remove most of the events described in Dragons of Faerun that led to the draconic resurgence.
4) Varying degrees of alterations to the Shades.
3rd edition came out with some great books: Grand History of the Realms, Champions of Valor, Champions of Ruin, Power of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms, Races of Faerun, and Lost Empires of Faerun stand out the most in my mind along with the Player's Guide to Faerun. A lot of the other books were more updates to previous editions.
Having read the 4th edition campaign settign and player's guide, I struggle to find anything interesting or noteworthy that could be used other than how they paired down some of the pantheons by converting some deities into Exarchs. Even so, that's just a matter of taste and not necessarily something where you can objectively call an improvement.
If I had any say in the matter, I'd like to see a reboot back to 3rd edition with a few slight changes:
1) Manshoon Wars never happened... that plotline really fizzled out fast and the resolution of having the vampiric Manshoon prevail was meh.
2) No Red Wizard enclaves.
3) Remove most of the events described in Dragons of Faerun that led to the draconic resurgence.
4) Varying degrees of alterations to the Shades.
3rd edition came out with some great books: Grand History of the Realms, Champions of Valor, Champions of Ruin, Power of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms, Races of Faerun, and Lost Empires of Faerun stand out the most in my mind along with the Player's Guide to Faerun. A lot of the other books were more updates to previous editions.
Having read the 4th edition campaign settign and player's guide, I struggle to find anything interesting or noteworthy that could be used other than how they paired down some of the pantheons by converting some deities into Exarchs. Even so, that's just a matter of taste and not necessarily something where you can objectively call an improvement.
GX.Sigma
Adventurer
Exactly--Ao exists, Elminster exists, none of that affects the PCs. What's the difference? You don't have players trying to "catch up to" the gods, do you?
You know that the gods are out there doing divine things, and you know that Elminster is out there doing wizardy things. He's part of the mythology.
Obryn
Hero
I mentioned it above, but I think the Neverwinter setting book was a 10x better "introduction" to the post-Spellplague Realms than the FRPG and FRCG were. The setting didn't make a whit of sense to me until that.
Even that, I prefer the gray-box bare-bones roll-your-own Realms. But I didn't dislike the 4e Realms nearly as much.
-O
Drowbane
First Post
I have never let Canon control how I ran the Forgotten Realms. At the start of a new FR campaign I tell my players that this is "loosely based on the Forgotten Realms" to nip the whole "but according to Novel X this happens!" in the bud.
I don't get the High Level NPC hate. Grey Hawk has the Circle of Eight, all uber-level Mages, but I have never seen anybody bash Mordenkainen's little clique. Don't like The Chosen of Mystra or Drizzt? Don't use them in your campaign! The only time any of my games has shown that Drizzt even exists was a very brief cameo appearance. I have used Elminster to hire the PCs (whole mysterious old man with a quest thing), but he doesn't show up to save the PCs or anything like that. The uber-NPCs are just background, and usually distant background.
Catching up to Elminster? Who cares. Your campaign should be about your player's PCs, If Elminster is stealing the show that is your failure, not Ed Greenwood's for including Elminster in the campaign setting in the first place.
Oh, fair enough. I think I would prefer an official reboot. However I have enough older materials to run during Netheril (the real Netheril, not the 4e version
), The Fall of Netheril, the height of Cormanthor, Fall of Myth Drannor, The Grey Box (1e), Post Time of Trials (2e), The Return of Bane (3e)... and if I wanted to even the Spellplague (4e).
Holy crap! Its Talath!!
edit: for that matter, if I happen to run a Star Wars campaign the setting is only loosely based on that universe. The Skywalkers may exist, but they are not the focus of my storylines. I enjoy Lucas' broad picture, but some of the little fiddly stuff I'd rather ignore (The heroes from the movies, especially the Skywalkers, The Rule of Two, etc).
I don't get the High Level NPC hate. Grey Hawk has the Circle of Eight, all uber-level Mages, but I have never seen anybody bash Mordenkainen's little clique. Don't like The Chosen of Mystra or Drizzt? Don't use them in your campaign! The only time any of my games has shown that Drizzt even exists was a very brief cameo appearance. I have used Elminster to hire the PCs (whole mysterious old man with a quest thing), but he doesn't show up to save the PCs or anything like that. The uber-NPCs are just background, and usually distant background.
Catching up to Elminster? Who cares. Your campaign should be about your player's PCs, If Elminster is stealing the show that is your failure, not Ed Greenwood's for including Elminster in the campaign setting in the first place.
Oh, fair enough. I think I would prefer an official reboot. However I have enough older materials to run during Netheril (the real Netheril, not the 4e version
), The Fall of Netheril, the height of Cormanthor, Fall of Myth Drannor, The Grey Box (1e), Post Time of Trials (2e), The Return of Bane (3e)... and if I wanted to even the Spellplague (4e).Holy crap! Its Talath!!
edit: for that matter, if I happen to run a Star Wars campaign the setting is only loosely based on that universe. The Skywalkers may exist, but they are not the focus of my storylines. I enjoy Lucas' broad picture, but some of the little fiddly stuff I'd rather ignore (The heroes from the movies, especially the Skywalkers, The Rule of Two, etc).
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Stormonu
Legend
Alternate Prime Material Planes. Multiverse.
D&D has gotten away from this - or at least its fan have. There could be versions of the Forgotten Realms in which the Time of Troubles never happened; neither did the spellplague.
It's not a retcon or a roll back. It's just another Forgotten Realms. You don't have to make them compatible, what happened in one doesn't have to happen in another.
Just like when everyone runs it at home.
D&D has gotten away from this - or at least its fan have. There could be versions of the Forgotten Realms in which the Time of Troubles never happened; neither did the spellplague.
It's not a retcon or a roll back. It's just another Forgotten Realms. You don't have to make them compatible, what happened in one doesn't have to happen in another.
Just like when everyone runs it at home.
The problem high-level NPCs pose to me is that if the players know or think they are more powerful than their characters, they often try to solve a problem by informing the NPCs ("Hellgate about to open? X needs to be informed, so he can close it! No, we can't risk trying to do it ourselves, the whole country is at stake!"). It can be gotten around by downplaying the NPCs, and it helps if the players don't read the novels. Cutting down on teleportation also helps a lot.
The problem with house ruling large parts of the Realms is that you don't need to buy a book if you write it yourself anyway. There is just 1 thing I'd even consider using from the 4E version, and that I already knew from a preview before I bought the book. The whole rest is of no interest or use to me at all.
The 4E realms also lack just about every detail. Most regions are just laid out so bare-bones, they offer no help at all in DMing anything there. 2E material is flat out superiour in adding all the small touches that make a setting come alive. 3E is already a bit too broad-stroked, but tolerable still. 4E? It offers no detail, no color at all, and therefore no help.
A setting book should offer more than a few adventure ideas and some rough outlines of entire countries.
The problem with house ruling large parts of the Realms is that you don't need to buy a book if you write it yourself anyway. There is just 1 thing I'd even consider using from the 4E version, and that I already knew from a preview before I bought the book. The whole rest is of no interest or use to me at all.
The 4E realms also lack just about every detail. Most regions are just laid out so bare-bones, they offer no help at all in DMing anything there. 2E material is flat out superiour in adding all the small touches that make a setting come alive. 3E is already a bit too broad-stroked, but tolerable still. 4E? It offers no detail, no color at all, and therefore no help.
A setting book should offer more than a few adventure ideas and some rough outlines of entire countries.
Incenjucar
Legend
For me it started with the adventure in the 2E FR boxed set where Elminster shows up to heal the party.
FR reinforces the notion that you aren't heroes, you're JANITORS. Elminster is the hero. He's so capable that he has time to play nurse maid to you in his spare time. He's Superman without kryptonite and you're just a beat cop aspiring to be a C-lister.
There are ways to do this right. Eberron, Dark Sun, and Planescape have fantastic examples of powerful NPCs that add flavor and something to aspire to without making you look redundant.
Steely_Dan
First Post
I have a buddy who'd be very into that.
Steely_Dan
First Post
Yes, and Temporal Prime (Chronomancer) - alternate timelines (future 9 Hells etc).
...Devils with artillery could be fun.
Blackwarder
Adventurer
In my brief DMing through the realms (the only campaign arc I managed to run from start to finish with the same group that started it) I always though about Elminster as a sort of Gandalf of the realms, he is over there and he is unique and he might help or use the PC for his own ends and the characters might never meet him.
In my game the players never met him (or another of the great characters).
Warder
In my game the players never met him (or another of the great characters).
Warder
Yora
Legend
Having Level 30 wizards is no different than the existance of nuclear weapons in a modern setting. They do have the potential to potentially end every battle before it begins, but you don't throw them at every little problem all the time.
They need to know what problems exist, they need to know which ones require their personal intervention, they need to be ready when something really important happens, and they also need to keep in mind how much attention their personal presence draws. Because there are as many evil epic spellcasters as there a good ones.
When you have small and medium scale problems, and lots of low and mid level heroes in the area, then let those heroes deal with the problems. How many people have actually played campaigns in which the PCs where dealing with enemies so powerful that the top 10 good guys would consider it the greatest threat in the whole world at that time? If they have to take care of the problem, then it means there are no local heroes able to deal with it. In which case there is no problem, since the PCs would not have been able to do anything about it in the first place.
They need to know what problems exist, they need to know which ones require their personal intervention, they need to be ready when something really important happens, and they also need to keep in mind how much attention their personal presence draws. Because there are as many evil epic spellcasters as there a good ones.
When you have small and medium scale problems, and lots of low and mid level heroes in the area, then let those heroes deal with the problems. How many people have actually played campaigns in which the PCs where dealing with enemies so powerful that the top 10 good guys would consider it the greatest threat in the whole world at that time? If they have to take care of the problem, then it means there are no local heroes able to deal with it. In which case there is no problem, since the PCs would not have been able to do anything about it in the first place.
Steely_Dan
First Post
Yeah, that revolting 2nd Ed Drizzt (Menzoberranzan boxed set), ugh: had an automatic chance to kill things on a hit.
dd.stevenson
Super KY
Don't know if this is how you meant it, but reading this line just inspired a whole campaign to contain a conflict before it escalated to a point where Elminster had to "get involved" and start leveling cities.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
I DM more then play, and as a dm the realms suck.
MY best example was i wanted to use the red wizards as a villan. I already had many problems in the campain, but when the PCs found out that at level 7 they had to stop a evoker 5/ red wizard 5 and her small army from invading a country... there answer was to instead of comeing up with a plan, go get symbol...
I can be more detailed, but point blank there are 100 high level NPCs in my hombrew world and none of them are expected to take center stage... but in fr there are 20+ ones that everyone feels should.
Run a game in ebberon no problem... dark sun same thing. 4e realms no problem... 1e-3e realmes JLM rules the world
MY best example was i wanted to use the red wizards as a villan. I already had many problems in the campain, but when the PCs found out that at level 7 they had to stop a evoker 5/ red wizard 5 and her small army from invading a country... there answer was to instead of comeing up with a plan, go get symbol...
I can be more detailed, but point blank there are 100 high level NPCs in my hombrew world and none of them are expected to take center stage... but in fr there are 20+ ones that everyone feels should.
Run a game in ebberon no problem... dark sun same thing. 4e realms no problem... 1e-3e realmes JLM rules the world
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