Eden Studios Adds Drive-Thru Window

Henry said:
No one has to register credit card info to get to ENWorld; when credit card or Paypal info gets exchanged, it's a whole different ballgame to identity thieves/miners.
Yeah, but to many things online (e.g. from RPGNow), you do need to exchange credit card info.

Perhaps I"m wrong, but merely buying things online from wherever seems to be a larger risk than registering with Adobe.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

"George" from Eden is actually always like that (at least on the internet), and is why I am generally loathe to buy Eden products.

(And heck, I have a fairly high tolerance, continuing to buy Pinnacle stuff after getting thrown off their mailing list)
 
Last edited:

I won't be buying Eden's DTRPG or print products. I am *not* sufficiently pissed off enough to *never* buy Eden's print products again, but I won't until they remove the DRM.

It has nothing to do with not wanting Eden to make a living, it has nothing even to do with the quality of the books. If they had done research they would have realized why DRM is a bad system and why it is the first part of a slippery slope towards a complete distrust of the customer and an abrogation of consumer rights. The system they've chosen in particular has been particularly noted for it's faults.

I've stated that while I think DRM is inherently evil, there ARE DRM possibilities that are innocuous. iTunes is DRM done right - it's very unrestrictive what you can do with the music, and if you really need to bypass it for whatever reason, there's a convienient "out." That's not the case with the Adobe DRM. The fact that DTRPG not only did no market research but did so with no technology reserarch shows to me the absolute disdain that they have for their customers. (I honestly believe the DTRPG/WW family honestly views thier relationship with customers as an antagonistic relationship.)

It's unfortunate, but if we want Eden to take a particular action to preserve our consumer rights, all we can do is withdraw our dollar-votes and tell you why we are doing so. To me this seems like a non-starter. Back out of DTRPG, and Eden gets those dollar votes back. If you truly with to preserve your print market, that would be the best result.
 

I know George and in person he is a very polite and likeable fellow. However, like any person who runs a business, he will defend it against slams and attacks that are unwarranted. As a whole, RPGnet (and to some extent, EN World) posters feel that by posting boycott statements or negative comments they can drastically affect a company's sales. But to be honest, nothing is further from the truth. Every member of EN World and RPGNet combined could choose to boycott a publisher and it might make a minor dent in sales at the very most and that's it. Therefore, George (and other publishers) doesn't worry about offending someone on a bulletin board especially when they take an "attitude" with him or his company. George is blunt, calls it like he sees it and feels that his company doesn't "owe" gamers anything, especially something that, in his opinion, can be easily pirated (which he does feel is a problem for his company).

Another thing to remember about DRM and Drivethru along with the publishers using it. Their target audience is the person who cannot get a print copy easily because of location, availability and/or costs (such as being overseas or stuck 200 miles from a game store). They also aren't concerned about the gamer who wants to be able to rip it apart by copy/paste numerous times in a single day for whatever reason. They are looking at the casual gamer who just wants an electronic copy because he probably can't get a print one. So if you are of a mind that a pdf should be 50% or less than the cost of a print version, you aren't their target customer either. So I wouldn't get too upset over Eden (or any other publisher) and this decision to go with Drivethru, because it was made strictly in terms of a business decision that offers an alternative to customers who may not have had that option before. Nothing more and nothing less, in my opinon.

Just my .02 worth...
 

As a whole, RPGnet (and to some extent, EN World) posters feel that by posting boycott statements or negative comments they can drastically affect a company's sales.

As a whole? Um, I don't think so. A few folks have said that they would go so far as to boycott print products. That's it.

At any rate, George has tendered an apology for his initial hasty response on RPGnet.
 

Ghostwind said:
I know George and in person he is a very polite and likeable fellow. However, like any person who runs a business, he will defend it against slams and attacks that are unwarranted. As a whole, RPGnet (and to some extent, EN World) posters feel that by posting boycott statements or negative comments they can drastically affect a company's sales. But to be honest, nothing is further from the truth. Every member of EN World and RPGNet combined could choose to boycott a publisher and it might make a minor dent in sales at the very most and that's it. Therefore, George (and other publishers) doesn't worry about offending someone on a bulletin board especially when they take an "attitude" with him or his company. George is blunt, calls it like he sees it and feels that his company doesn't "owe" gamers anything, especially something that, in his opinion, can be easily pirated (which he does feel is a problem for his company).

Another thing to remember about DRM and Drivethru along with the publishers using it. Their target audience is the person who cannot get a print copy easily because of location, availability and/or costs (such as being overseas or stuck 200 miles from a game store). They also aren't concerned about the gamer who wants to be able to rip it apart by copy/paste numerous times in a single day for whatever reason. They are looking at the casual gamer who just wants an electronic copy because he probably can't get a print one. So if you are of a mind that a pdf should be 50% or less than the cost of a print version, you aren't their target customer either. So I wouldn't get too upset over Eden (or any other publisher) and this decision to go with Drivethru, because it was made strictly in terms of a business decision that offers an alternative to customers who may not have had that option before. Nothing more and nothing less, in my opinon.

Just my .02 worth...
Normally, that's true, but you're forgetting about the nature of the product.

Most Print customers don't look for roleplaying game information online. They first find out about new product either when it appears on the shelves or when it appears in Game Trade Magazine.

With electronic customers, by definition, they have to be online. That makes them much more likely to be particpants in the gaming discussion boards - but even if they don't, it makes them likely to have the same sorts of opinions regarding DRM as people ON the message boards.

In short, the market for new electronic roleplaying game products are the people who HAVE bought electronic roleplaying game products, not a hypothetical overseas guy. Even the overseas guy has to weigh the costs of getting Vampire at an ungodly price that he can't do much with vs. getting HARP or Whispering Vault from RPGnow cheaper and easier.

Especially with competition from e23 coming up, so long as Steve Jackson doesn't go for DRM, Pyramid subscribers, on which SJG already has an inroad, are, by definition, willing to pay for electronic roleplaying game material.

To say that we don't have an impact on sales in this issue is terribly shortsighted. I'm boycotting the print products, but that's not out of some grand scheme, but out of a personal ethical responsibility I feel I have. Boycotting the DTRPG site is something negative internet word of mouth can really affect.

Personally, I think that DTRPG is trying to twisp-and-catsby away their customers.

"Don't like the DRM? Run Linux? Can't print it out? Can't access it on your computer? Can you get the print products cheaper? Tough, it's not FOR you. We're after the customers who live more than 200 miles from a game store, don't run MacOS9, Windows 98FE or 95, or a Unix based system, have access to a lazer printer and paper, don't mind DRM, and don't mind paying full price for a e-book product. Both of them!"
 

Ghostwind said:
Another thing to remember about DRM and Drivethru along with the publishers using it. Their target audience is the person who cannot get a print copy easily because of location, availability and/or costs (such as being overseas or stuck 200 miles from a game store).

Fair enough.

Does anybody know who has the people who were buying pdfs last week as a target audience?

I mean, obviously RPGnow still does.

But if Monte has gone exclusive with Drivethru and Drivethru isn't looking to sell to me. Then that means that Monte is not looking to sell to me?

Please tell me where I got it wrong.

(Also I think the two target audiences you described in an either/or fashion account for less than 25% of the market, but that it a separate arguement.)
 
Last edited:

thundershot said:
I'll vote with my pocketbook, and I won't buy the PDFs at DTRPG. This has nothing to do with print copies. If they sell a ton of print, and no PDFs (especially if they sold them via rpgnet), it will tell the various companies something.

I'll be damned if I'm going to stop buying PRINT products just to spite the company's decision about pdfs...

Chris

I agree.

However, there have also been a handful of companies which have been completly unprofessional and insulting. Because of THAT I will be highly hesitant to buy from them in the future. I have everything I need for great games already. So I can choose to bypass jerks without the slightest hesitation.

I have no delusion that my lack of purchase will have any significant impact. But it is amusing that people who claim a single pirated copy takes food out of their mouth can turn around and act like a lost cash money sale is meaningless. Not exactly sound or consistent logic.
 

Ghostwind said:
I know George and in person he is a very polite and likeable fellow. However, like any person who runs a business, he will defend it against slams and attacks that are unwarranted. As a whole, RPGnet (and to some extent, EN World) posters feel that by posting boycott statements or negative comments they can drastically affect a company's sales. But to be honest, nothing is further from the truth. Every member of EN World and RPGNet combined could choose to boycott a publisher and it might make a minor dent in sales at the very most and that's it. Therefore, George (and other publishers) doesn't worry about offending someone on a bulletin board especially when they take an "attitude" with him or his company. George is blunt, calls it like he sees it and feels that his company doesn't "owe" gamers anything, especially something that, in his opinion, can be easily pirated (which he does feel is a problem for his company).

But all the boycot has to do is dent sales enough so that it is greater than the revenue brought in by DTRPG and it becomes a better business descision to get them to change their practices or drop the service altogether. To the boycoters either would count as a success since the real target is DTRPGs business model. If this revenue stream is as small as FDP seems to state then it wouldn't take more than a handful of Enworlders and RPG.neters to make it succeed.
 

thundershot said:
I'll vote with my pocketbook, and I won't buy the PDFs at DTRPG. This has nothing to do with print copies. If they sell a ton of print, and no PDFs (especially if they sold them via rpgnet), it will tell the various companies something.

I'm afraid that they'll take the wrong message from this. Instead of thinking, "Darn, I bet more people would have purchased our PDFs if we didn't have this overly restrictive DRM thing attached to them", I think they'll come to the conclusion that, "Huh. What's the big deal with these PDFs? Nobody's buying them, so it's not even worth our time to make them."

Not buying the PDfs is, I think, a start. But, I think letting the companies know *why* you're not buying them (very politely) is key.

Something along the lines of:

"Dear [name of Game Designer or Company Owner],

I wanted you to know that as a frequent purchaser of RPG PDFs, I was intrigued when I saw that you were offering [insert product name here] on DriveThruRPG. I have been wanting to purchase this product ever since I heard about it [or ever since it went out of print or becuase I want to have an electronic and a print copy, etc.].

Unfortunately, I will not buy e-books with DRM. Therefore, I can not purchase your product.

I will be visiting your website frequently to see if you reverse your decision to sell your electronic products exclusively through DriveThruRPG. Until you sell your electronic products elsewhere, without DRM restrictions, I will be spending my money elsewhere.

Sincerely,
[name]"

Several hundreds of e-mails going to the company owners and marketing personnel of each company that you are not buying from would probably mean more than a bunch of posts that are, fairly or unfairly, seen as inflammatory by the people who work at these companies.
 

Remove ads

Top