Edition Fatigue

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'll also add that one of my reasons for pointing this out was to show that a lot of ideas we think are 'new' aren't always quite as original as we always believe.

Agreed!

I know a lot of people dismiss the Shanarra books as a direct ripoff of LotR, but others have pointed out that Brooks was a big fan of the same sources J.R.R.T. used to create his masterwork...and how many elements from LotR can be found in the fairytales and legends of Europe.

And the thing is, as a fan, it is VERY tempting to defend or uphold the talent of our favorites...who may be more aware than we of the real story behind the stories.

 

[Hussar]

With the Terry Brooks example though, it goes a bit farther - to the point where you have almost identical scenes lifted almost verbatim from LotR. To be fair though, this really only applies to the first Shanarra book. But, Brooks was skating pretty darn close to the source IMO. Then again, in the 1970's, you could get away with far more than you could today.

Which was my origininal point about the whole "wizard olympics" thing. Game companies certainly could put out a book about a wizard school - there is an RPG aimed at younger female gamers about witches at a wizard's school that could easily be turned into a Harry Potter RPG. ((Sorry, forgot the name of the game right now))

But, that's a small time press thing an likely never going to come onto anyone's radar. If WOTC does the same thing, people are going to notice and I'm sure that Hasbro's legal department would be all over WOTC like a cheap suit if they tried.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With the Terry Brooks example though, it goes a bit farther - to the point where you have almost identical scenes lifted almost verbatim from LotR. To be fair though, this really only applies to the first Shanarra book. But, Brooks was skating pretty darn close to the source IMO. Then again, in the 1970's, you could get away with far more than you could today.

There are huge names- authors & critics alike- on both sides of the debate. Brooks himself admits the influence, but cites other works as well, including suggestions from his editor, Lester Del Rey.

Which was my origininal point about the whole "wizard olympics" thing. Game companies certainly could put out a book about a wizard school - there is an RPG aimed at younger female gamers about witches at a wizard's school that could easily be turned into a Harry Potter RPG.

But, that's a small time press thing an likely never going to come onto anyone's radar. If WOTC does the same thing, people are going to notice and I'm sure that Hasbro's legal department would be all over WOTC like a cheap suit if they tried.

I agree, to a point. Since you can't copyright game rules, it could be done...as long as it wasn't called "quidditch." (That is how its spelled, right?). Still, your instincts are right about the legal eagles on both sides: I doubt Hasbro/WotC would put such a game on the market without an OK from Rowling's camp, if for no other reason than to spare the company an expensive lawsuit. Win or lose, Hasbro would lose money & time...as well as getting bad press.

 

[Krensky]

The days when RPG's companies could willy nilly lift IP to use are long behind us. Look at the beating FASA took over the use of the various Mech's "borrowed" from Japanese anime.

As a point of order, FASA borrowed nothing. They licensed the right to use the mechanical designs for the Macross variable fighters and destroids, along with a few other mecha designs. They got scared by the complex and downright weird status of the Macross IP and the long running legal fight between Studio Nue, Big West, Tatsunoko Productions, Playmates, and Harmony Gold. So they dropped all the licensed designs.

 

[delericho]

Maybe this should be split to another thread, if this forum has that added feature, so as to not further derail this one, as there may be things about this that could be discussed about RPGs using the "Harry Potter" example, in to what all other things could revolve around this?

Agreed. In any event, my point wasn't just about the viability of dropping a Harry Potter clone into D&D and calling it done.

What I had hoping to get at was that the umbrella of fantasy that D&D encompasses seems to have shrunk in time, as it's all become quite formalised and po-faced. Consider some of the early modules like "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" or "Dungeonland". WotC would never publish anything like these now, any more than they'd clone Harry Potter, Pokemon or the dragon-riders of Eragon. They just don't fit the notion of what "D&D fantasy" is any more.

And I think that's a loss for the game - sure, you or I may not like them, and may be relieved at such things no longer having a place, but then, we don't need to buy/use them.

But maybe to someone else they're exactly the change that's needed. Maybe they're the thing that inspires the designer of the future to take his game off in some new and unexpected direction, and...

As it is, we see much the same things we've seen for the past 30+ years: yet another variant of the high-fantasy Adventure Path (last time was a rising Dark Lord, this time it's snake-men, next time it's drow, awesome!), or yet another variant of the low-fantasy sandbox. Again, and again, and again. It's no wonder we're fatigued!

 

[Hussar]

Now that Del, I'll totally agree with.

I WANT MORE WEIRD IN MY GAME PLEASE!!!

 

[pemerton]

Failing in my role as Hussar's sock puppet - I'm not sure I want more weird. (I don't mind others getting it, provided it doesn't get too much in the way of me getting what I want. Although personally, I'd have to wonder whether anyone really likes Dungeonland/Beyond the Magic Mirror. I'm not sure they're the pinnacle of module design even by the standards of weird.)

But even within more conventional high fantasy constraints, I would like modules that are more open to moral and thematic possibilities than WotC has given us (either in 3E or 4e). Compare the Atlas Games Penumbra modules, for example, to anything WotC has produced.


Or look at Bastion of Broken Souls -


*SPOILERS BELOW*


- an angel is the lock to a prison, and saving the unborn souls of the universe requires opening that prison, and the module presents only the option of fighting the angel (when I GMed this, one of the PCs persuaded the angel to let him kill her - the module as written doesn't allow for this)

- inside the prison is a banished god who has a crucial artefact for saving those unborn souls, and the module presents only the option of fighting the god (when I GMed this, the PCs befriended the god - in part on the basis of having already befriended a dead god who had been the banished god's friend before he died - and he gave them the artefact to borrow - but this required overriding the express text of the module)

- another source of information is a night hag, who (once again) the module assumes must be fought (when I ran it, the PCs struck an uneasy agreement with her when she released she couldn't fight them and win, and she gave them the information they needed in exchange for her freedom).

This module has the potential to be a really interesting epic adventure, but as written is just a sequence of combats that are meaningless slogs - and needlessly so, because they have all the seeds of engaging roleplaying encounters written into them.

What is wrong with WotC?

 

[Coldwyn]

I´m of two minds regarding weird, mostly because most writers hit my kind of humour. OTOH I´m reading Clark Ashton Smiths Tales of Zothique to pass the time during public transit an stuff like the stranded alien in "The Tomb-Spawn" really enhance the setting for me.

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]:

I think it´s hard to do morality and thics right, especially in a game. You really run the risk of offending some readers sensibilities there. Also, add that there has to be a certain level of maturity and self-reflecten for it to work. And, to tell the truth, nothing against hard moral choices but I for one am gaming for recreation so while it´s fine for some intelectual stimulus, it doesn´t help me on escapism.

 

[delericho]

Failing in my role as Hussar's sock puppet - I'm not sure I want more weird. (I don't mind others getting it, provided it doesn't get too much in the way of me getting what I want. Although personally, I'd have to wonder whether anyone really likes Dungeonland/Beyond the Magic Mirror. I'm not sure they're the pinnacle of module design even by the standards of weird.)

I certainly wouldn't hold those modules up as high art to be emulated. But it does seem to me that there's something there that WotC would just never touch at all. Sure, we can have the Vorpal Sword and Jabberwocky from Carroll, but Pelor forbid we touch anything else! There is no place for whimsy in our product; D&D is serious business!!

I'd just like to see WotC push the envelope more, be more open to other aspects of fantasy than the endless quest for the next power-up. And not even all the time, either - but let's have some variety to our diet.

But even within more conventional high fantasy constraints, I would like modules that are more open to moral and thematic possibilities than WotC has given us (either in 3E or 4e). Compare the Atlas Games Penumbra modules, for example, to anything WotC has produced.

What is wrong with WotC?

Back when Paizo did Dungeon, they made a point in each of their Adventure Paths to have one "odd" adventure. Maybe the PCs have to intrigue at the mad tyrant's dinner party, or break someone out of an extra-planar prison without their gear (not actually from an AP, but you get the idea), or whatever.

Of course, those adventures invariably got mixed reviews. That's probably inevitable if you're doing something different - some people will love it, but some will hate it, whereas with the "same old thing", everyone will at least be comfortable.

But it does occur to me that eDungeon (or whatever succeeds it) is probably the ideal place for this sort of experimentation. Sure, you do your Adventure Paths (or whatever), and the 'standard' adventures to be dropped in any campaign anywhere. But also, in addition to these adventures of general utility, every so often you throw in something a bit offbeat - the PCs are trapped in the mad dreams of a tortured ex-Paladin, the PCs must recruit allies to swing a vote against the deforestation of the elven nation, the PCs are turned into kobolds and thrown into a ditch and must make their way home. Or something.

 

[Hussar]

I'd just like to see WotC push the envelope more, be more open to other aspects of fantasy than the endless quest for the next power-up. And not even all the time, either - but let's have some variety to our diet.

I have a module kicking around here somewhere, The Silver Key (I think that's the name) from 2e where the PC's are polymorphed into orcs in order to infiltrate an orcish city and retrieve... well the Silver Key.

The trick in the module is the addition of what they call Orc Points. Every time you do something orcish, anyone at the table can nominate you for an orc point and if the majority of the table agrees, you get one. Every orc point is worth a fairly big chunk of xp. However, if the orc points exceed your Wisdom (or maybe Cha, it's been a while since I read this module) you are permanently transformed into an orc with an orc's mentality.

The writers even extend a bit of meta game to this - if the player swears out of character but still at the table, he gets an orc point. Striking another player, even as a joke, gets you an orc point. That sort of thing. I ran this module a couple of times and it was hillarious every time. Really a good hit.

I'd love to see more of this sort of thing in modules. WOTC really, REALLY needs to get some creative mojo going for their modules.